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I want to defend Shaolin-Do from the court papers.

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    I've re-read this, and all I can seem to gather is that everything was made up at some point, therefore Shaolin Do is beyond all forms of criticism. Is that about right?


      Originally posted by Permalost View Post
      I've re-read this, and all I can seem to gather is that everything was made up at some point, therefore Shaolin Do is beyond all forms of criticism. Is that about right?
      Yes, but you forgot the whole "he speaks another language, so it was an error." We will just forget that he has lived here for nearly sixty years.


        Originally posted by Permalost View Post
        I've re-read this, and all I can seem to gather is that everything was made up at some point, therefore Shaolin Do is beyond all forms of criticism. Is that about right?
        Sorta, the article referenced says he states he created the 30 short forms not all the material. The 900 forms is a large collection of different things which match what other schools practice. I've looked up a few of the forms on youtube to see how other styles do them and most are similar with subtle differences.


          Originally posted by Permalost View Post
          Well, an art can be said to be good or bad depending on its context. Shaolin do is an art crammed to the gills with forms. 900, I believe you said.

          Let's say by "good martial arts" you mean effective training for fighting. Training primarily in a prescribed series of exaggerated pre-determined moves by oneself is less than ideal for training for a chaotic unchoreographed interpersonal exerience (fighting). So, an art with lots of kata/forms may be good martial arts in the context of something other than fighting, but fighting is not it.

          Given Shaolin Do's questionable history, it seems that practicing nearly a thousand forms would only be useful for historical preservation reasons. Shaolin Do doesn't have this though, so it fails there too.

          So, what do you mean when you say their marital arts are still good even if their history is questionable?
          excellent points here, I've heard one of the instructors say that the goal of Shaolin-Do was to preserve the art. That's not a direct quote mind you. So in large part it depends on the branch of Shaolin-Do. Though there is said to be 900 forms which I can not personally verify but do believe (my choice get over it ;) there are only 25 forms in the external path to obtain black belt, 54 if you count each short kata as a separate form which is often the case. after black belt there is close to 100 total to hit 5th degree. most of the other material is seminars and a pick and choose type of a deal so you can focus on your favorites.

          As far as fight effectiveness that depends on the student. sparring and drilling including group sparring will help the student. Drilling such as reflexive training is also helpful.

          However bare in mind not everyone gets into martial arts to compete or fight. In my past schools most did not do tournaments or focus on the street fighting self defense applications.

          many of the forms I personally see as preservation and don't have alot of street application. for one reason the hand positions would require striking with the fingers if you are not doing the finger conditioning your going to break something. the sparring techniques though are effective. as shown in the video though these are real martial art forms they are teaching. I dont' care where they came from, but I do believe what they say. yes i realize the opinions of others on here about that.

          also bare in mind this is MY opinion on shaolin-do and does not reflect every student.


            Limited Time Offer.

            Originally posted by battlefields View Post
            I think you might have dropped in to one or two of these schools, you wanted a Mr Miyagi to teach you teh deadly crane kick...
            Aw, man, fuck you. I live on the wages of that shit, stop dissing on my alleyway grappling-kungpo-ka-SD school I run as a Shaolin Do.

            FYI - It's "teh deadly crane d'arce" as well, they will be kicking, as in kicking for their life. HA HA HA *hands on hips, guttural anime laughter*

            But seriously, I'll offer a free week to you, Battle Fields, to make up for my student being full of shit, and a cunt.

            I will show you:
            • D'arced Crane
            • Craning D'arce
            • Creamed D'arce
            • Mud Pie Fighting
            • Cose Quarter Crane Kicking
            • Kicking a crane in the neck at the exact right place to make it poop itself uncontrollably**
            • and a kimura

            I won't charge you, but you'll want to you'll want to pay...

            ** Only for certified black belts of tai chi air ben ding or zen do kai.
            Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

            Miyagi: Feeling correct.

            Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

            Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.


     saying that English is not SKT's first language is pretty lame. You are aware that he knows English well enough to receive a Masters degree from an English speaking university, right? And that he was over half way through his study for the Doctorate before he decided to withdraw.

              For Blaze and dalmoe...several of us on here studied SD at one time and most of us reached black belt level and were instructors. I guess you could say we are intimately familiar with the Kool-Aid drinking attitude of most SDers. This is to explain to you that we know more than you and have also reviewed public documents regarding SKT and the legal issues he has faced, as well as the legitimacy of SD.


                5 days straight?


                After 3 days most people start having serious physical issues.

                You seem to talk out of your backside no matter what you are talking about.


                  Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                  There has been many "impossible" feats that have been done. Has the story been exaggerated? perhaps, but who wants to hear stories about how he slept like a normal man?
                  -Way to pick the one story that's vaguely plausible/probably exaggerated and declare it to be vaguely plausible and probably exaggerated.

                  -I might be more inclined to believe he stayed awake 5 days if he weren't the same guy who claimed to melt a baby and such. Is that a story that was exaggerated because that's what people want to hear? I mean, personally I don't find baby melting stories so interesting but I don't know what America likes anymore.

                  -Why would I want to hear about how the guy sleeps at all?

                  -Why would I want to hear an obvious bullshit story about how a guy sleeps? I'd rather it be about how he puts on a suit of power armor and fights the undead while we sleep.

                  You have to realize that most of the things an effective martial arts master can do are "impossible" by normal human limitations.
                  -no, most of them aren't. Most of them are the same things the rest of us do. Taking shits and wincing at cold mornings and such.

                  -more like impossible by individual limitations

                  -are you suggesting that high level martial arts teachers who don't engage in "wow, that's impossible!" parlor tricks aren't real martial arts masters? My teacher's a 67 year old man who doesn't do fancy tricks, but I'd definitely call him a master.


                    You need to slow down with the master worship bruh. No need to get mad. See it from their point of view. Some people just don't like to be lied to.


                      Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                      When I read some of these responses it kinda burns me... The reason is there are many legends blow out of proportion no mater what system you are talking about. No one wants to hear legends about a man who sat and eat all day. During one of the tai chi forms there is a move called "needle at the sea bottom". It's about how the money king had a staff and would strink it to the size of a needle to carry in his ear. He drops it in the sea and dives down to pick it up...any fact there? However it's a legend.

                      Though many of the stories maybe fabricated that doesn't change the fact of a linage nor does the fact that there is no other sources. The reason that is, is because there are people who master there forms and die all the time NEVER to be heard of or spoken of again. Of course Shaolin-Do is the only resource for what's left, besides for his students honoring him, no one else cared who Grandmaster Su was. All history is someone else's words. As to how much is true? well it's all interpretation and things change in the telling.

                      however as cougar spirit said it's real an effective as a martial art, so who cares where it came from. All the records are words of mouth.

                      As to the pictures of Ie, well not everyone wants there picture taken and if his students didn't have pictures to take care of then how is anyone supposed to have them?

                      As to the 900 forms the curriculum doesn't cover everything most things are taught in seminars. Also Grandmaster Sin's native tongue is not English. There is a move taught in Pakua that gets translated into "a flock of geese flew up" also as "suddenly a flock of ducks flew out" and "a bird shoots into the sky" obviously they are all different.

                      There is a set of forms you learn in the first few ranks called "short kata" there is 30, each one is a set of maybe 2-5 movements, that is 30 of the 900. So it's VERY practical to have over 900 forms. Remember What Grandmaster has is what's left of the Fukien temple, so it's an accumulation of all the different styles, animal systems, weapons etc.
                      Seriously, you will earn a temporary ban if you keep shitting up EVERY Shaolin-Do thread. Go read the threads, learn how to read and STFU.

                      Your self taught Chinese translation sucks, The' has lived here for nearly 50 years and went to school at an American University. How the fuck does lying about stories and other things not invalidate the lineage?



                        Originally posted by BlazeLeeDragon View Post
                        many of the forms I personally see as preservation
                        Preservation of stuff only made up since you were born, IF that?

                        You have stories, made up forms, and claims. These things don't last on Bullshido, for good reason.

                        You also continue to claim things that don't stand up to simple historical accuracy. For this reason, I will have a hard to believing you know the first thing about what Shaolin even means.

                        Do you know what Shaolin means?
                        '�I am no advocate of passivity,� Coffin Mott said in an 1860 speech. �Quakerism, as I understand it, does not mean quietism. The early Friends were agitators; disturbers of the peace; and were more obnoxious in their day to charges, which are now so freely made, than we are.�'

                        My Glossary:



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