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    Defensive tap-out...

    OK, I am fully prepared for an arse-raping over this question.
    Just use lube, please?

    First, I'll give you the background, so you know this isn't just a shit idea I thought up randomly and decided to annoy you all with (although, I am pretty sure it [I]is[I] a generally shit idea...) Last night, I had a friendly sparring session with a younger cousin, he tapped out, as I practiced a kneebar on him. Straight away I dropped his leg, and relaxed everything. The little shit jerked his leg and hurt my nuts enough to make me say "That was jolly awful", or some such variation.

    Afterwards, I thought on how my release after his tap was almost a subconscious thing, a gross-motor response to stimuli as such, that I've drilled heaps just mucking around and now do without thinking(I am an absolute novice grappler, and feel much more comfortable on my feet, but one must learn, eh?). My reaction gave him an opening to hurt me, albeit unintentionally. I am sure it is much more ingrained in those who compete or practice heavily in grappling. Still with me?

    My arsehole question is this - could a purposeful tap be used in a [I]real[I] fight as a momentary distraction or to make an opening, when someone who was obviously a grappler had muckled onto you and was bending something unpleasant? Would there be a chance that someone might sometimes loosen their hold for a split second by reflex, allowing for further action by the chokee/bendee? Might work better in a drunken fight, or might not work at all.

    Of course, it is hard to test sparring - I tried to last night in our little freestyle bought at the end - he lifted my thigh to try and unbalance me, and I tapped his side immediately. Of course, he dropped me, but it's a sparring match, and he is supposed to.

    OK. I'm bent over. Have at it.

    #2
    Yes.

    Then again some people with functioning intellect could realize the difference between THE STREETS and THE MATS.

    Does your cousin have training?
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      #3
      Originally posted by PizDoff View Post
      Yes.

      Then again some people with functioning intellect could realize the difference between THE STREETS and THE MATS.

      Does your cousin have training?
      No way, although he is a decent brawler. I don't either, in any grappling. Just what I've been shown by friends and worked out for myself sparring.
      Yeah, there is that big difference which people love to go on about, and with adrenaline dumping and claret flying it probably wouldn't work well. I would imagine most grapplers keep a cooler head rolling around on the floor, though, and that could contribute to actually going into 'sport mode' for a moment, do you reckon?
      Thanks for just fingering my arse a bit, too PizDoff. I appreciate the lack of reaming so far.

      Comment


        #4
        I'd like to think that if I had to use my skills on the street against someone looking to really hurt me, I'd know I wasn't in the safe confines of my gym and thus the usual let go at a tap wouldn't happen. In fact, I'd likely have taken a few hits already, being that it's the street and all and considering I wouldn't know the person, it'd be likely that I would be sufficiently angry to completely disregard any taps or pleas for mercy. Plus, if I am attempting a sub, I'm likely going to be in a dominant position, so even if they do tap as a "psych", I'm still going to be mounted or in side control.

        It's hard to know, though, when I was younger and with much less training but more aggression and opportunity for a blue, I'd often have my mates drag me off the person once they started to cower under my rain of fists. I'd just get so angry that I'd been hit that I wouldn't notice when the person was done, kind of a blind rage. Granted, a lot of that was the demon drink and I don't imbibe Satan Sauce anymore, so I'm not sure if I had anger issues, or just literally was a booze hound with a penchant for violence when provoked.

        I don't think I would go into a blind rage nowadays due to not drinking. I'm confident in my skills, my ability and myself. I've had young guys drop their shoulder and act tough to me recently, in the last few months, only to look at them in the eyes, not menacing, not intimidating, just with confidence and see their faces turn from snarl to, on one occasion, a sincere "sorry mate" and walk away. Where I might've seen slights against me before as a challenge to my pride, I now see them as a means to challenge myself and my character.

        I think it was Iron Mike who said everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face. I doubt I'd be Pavlov response-ing to a tap if I got punched. It's a whole 'nother lead in scenario than slapping hands and bumping fist at the gym.
        GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
        Originally posted by Devil
        I think Battlefields and I had a spirited discussion once about who was the biggest narcissist. We both wanted the title but at the end of the day I had to concede defeat. Can't win 'em all.
        Originally posted by BackFistMonkey
        I <3 Battlefields...

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by battlefields View Post
          I'd like to think that if I had to use my skills on the street against someone looking to really hurt me, I'd know I wasn't in the safe confines of my gym and thus the usual let go at a tap wouldn't happen. In fact, I'd likely have taken a few hits already, being that it's the street and all and considering I wouldn't know the person, it'd be likely that I would be sufficiently angry to completely disregard any taps or pleas for mercy. Plus, if I am attempting a sub, I'm likely going to be in a dominant position, so even if they do tap as a "psych", I'm still going to be mounted or in side control.

          It's hard to know, though, when I was younger and with much less training but more aggression and opportunity for a blue, I'd often have my mates drag me off the person once they started to cower under my rain of fists. I'd just get so angry that I'd been hit that I wouldn't notice when the person was done, kind of a blind rage. Granted, a lot of that was the demon drink and I don't imbibe Satan Sauce anymore, so I'm not sure if I had anger issues, or just literally was a booze hound with a penchant for violence when provoked.

          I don't think I would go into a blind rage nowadays due to not drinking. I'm confident in my skills, my ability and myself. I've had young guys drop their shoulder and act tough to me recently, in the last few months, only to look at them in the eyes, not menacing, not intimidating, just with confidence and see their faces turn from snarl to, on one occasion, a sincere "sorry mate" and walk away. Where I might've seen slights against me before as a challenge to my pride, I now see them as a means to challenge myself and my character.

          I think it was Iron Mike who said everyone has a plan until they get hit in the face. I doubt I'd be Pavlov response-ing to a tap if I got punched. It's a whole 'nother lead in scenario than slapping hands and bumping fist at the gym.
          Yeah, that's true about getting angry, too. Someone who had lost their shit would be highly unlikely to respond. I am now wondering if it would work on an over-confident or cool cat opponent, though, or even a bouncer etc... trying to use a grappling submission.... Hmmmm. One way to find out.
          To the pub, to be a cunt! I'll let you's know if it works.:OpenMouth:

          Comment


            #6
            The thing about bouncers is more often than not, there's more of them.
            GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
            Originally posted by Devil
            I think Battlefields and I had a spirited discussion once about who was the biggest narcissist. We both wanted the title but at the end of the day I had to concede defeat. Can't win 'em all.
            Originally posted by BackFistMonkey
            I <3 Battlefields...

            Comment


              #7
              Too true.
              I don't really like fighting any bastard for real these days. Bouncers least so.
              Once, when I was a lad, a bouncer in Albury managed to stick my own cigarette up my nose, giving me a face mash. I actually managed to knock him down before I was restrained, and the other bouncer on the door admitted his partner had over-reacted a little (I just wanted to get my keys from a guy who was still inside...), but fuck my snoz was sore for ages.
              It was a good reason to quit smoking, and fighting bouncers.

              Comment


                #8
                I was recently reminded of something my girlfriend said to me about 5-6 years ago. I thought it was normal to get in fights, I drank excessively, I went to bars where people drank excessively and where people, dudes mainly, drink excessively, fights occur. I thought it so normal that when she said that I fight a lot, that it wasn't normal, I had to look at myself. What was "a lot"? What was normal?

                I didn't think I fought a lot, because it was normal in my mind, I basically thought that I was in physical altercations once or twice a year. We'd only known each other a couple of months and I was like, "nah, I don't fight that often", to which she replied, "you've told me of three fights you've been in since I've known you."

                Three fights in a couple of months is a lot. And this was in a period of my life where I thought I had significantly toned down my drunken fighting.

                By the way, I am not saying these were anything other than drunken barroom brawls, not sophisticated fights where I can say I "won". Nobody won. We were all losers.
                GET A RED BELT OR DIE TRYIN'.
                Originally posted by Devil
                I think Battlefields and I had a spirited discussion once about who was the biggest narcissist. We both wanted the title but at the end of the day I had to concede defeat. Can't win 'em all.
                Originally posted by BackFistMonkey
                I <3 Battlefields...

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yeah, I lived up in Darwin for a couple of years in my early to mid 20's, and managed to get into a half-dozen altercations while I was there. I am sure I bought it on myself, even when I wasn't 'asking for it'.

                  I know what you mean. My wife says I was basically a mouthy thug when we first got together, but I hid it well enough for her to get sucked in. When I had to tone my shit down, I toned it a tad too far, and started choofing pretty flat out. No more fights and drunken rampages, but not much incentive for anything else, either.

                  Getting back into MA and Self-Defense helped me can all that shit and get control of my shit again. I've never looked back, and apart from a wine here and there, I'm Captain Sensible these days.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Post related to the title...
                    I've heard a story, possible an urban legend, but it's supposed to be true. Perhaps I even read it here on Bullshido, but I am not sure.
                    It goes like this - an devout aikidoka practiced his art for years and years with body and soul. When someone was robbing him with a gun one day he disarmed him and instinctively returned the weapon, as is the custom in training. The robber looked stupidly for a moment, than shot him dead.
                    So you really need to be careful that the person on t3h str33t can't hurt you when he taps out, before you let go.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Stickybomb View Post
                      Post related to the title...
                      I've heard a story, possible an urban legend, but it's supposed to be true. Perhaps I even read it here on Bullshido, but I am not sure.
                      It goes like this - an devout aikidoka practiced his art for years and years with body and soul. When someone was robbing him with a gun one day he disarmed him and instinctively returned the weapon, as is the custom in training. The robber looked stupidly for a moment, than shot him dead.
                      So you really need to be careful that the person on t3h str33t can't hurt you when he taps out, before you let go.
                      Heh heh... Good stuff.
                      He should have dismantled the gun, like in 'Lethal Weapon 4'...

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I am going to basically say No, also when someone taps usually the reaction it to let up some not to necessarily completely disengage. Say I was choking you on the street and you tap I can loosen the choke and we can have a conversation you start being a D bag I can sink in nice and deep again. I am not going to just let go.
                        Also I should note it can be surprisingly hard to tap.
                        Also timing, If I am fighting someone I am not concerned with their safety I am not going to get my superior position then just ease into an arm bar or choke. Like I will while rolling. I am going to just rip that mother fucker off so even if I do get distracted by a tap that shit is already mangled.
                        Of the single rapier fight between valiant men, having both skill, he that is the best wrestler, or if neither of them can wrestle, the strongest man most commonly kills the other, or leaves him at his mercy.
                        –George Silver, Paradoxes of Defence

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Cheers guys. Thanks for actually taking the time to answer, and not cornholing me. And yeah, goodlun, even when we untrained monkeys spar, it is never a total disengage, unless it is a frantic 'fuck, you're killing me' flurry of taps.
                          And I suppose you're right - in a real blue, anything is gonna be cranked on really hard and really fast, probably until something breaks. We train to try and do things explosively for self defense, and I am betting real grapplers do the same, and are much better at it.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Luke Crow View Post
                            Yeah, that's true about getting angry, too. Someone who had lost their shit would be highly unlikely to respond. I am now wondering if it would work on an over-confident or cool cat opponent, though, or even a bouncer etc... trying to use a grappling submission.... Hmmmm. One way to find out.
                            To the pub, to be a cunt! I'll let you's know if it works.:OpenMouth:
                            don't bother hapened to a mate of mine over the weekend. he didn't let go but we all had a laugh about it afterwards.
                            Whitsunday Martial Arts Airlie Beach North Queensland.
                            http://www.facebook.com/#!/WhitsundayMartialArts

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Another reason to hyper focus on chokes on the street. Tap? They should get put to sleep before they have time to tap. Though I admit any anecdote I know is against an untrained (presumably) attacker that wouldn't have known to tap regardless. Still, even if they don't tap, and you pop their arm, then what? I mean people have fought through worse. Hell i seperated my shoulder in judo and kept fight till my endorphines made me feel like i was floating on clouds... And I'm a bitch. You still might have to choke them out. Why not skip a step?

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