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    Dilemma with my instructors view on use of force?

    So tonight we are doing drills, slow speed, and my guru sees that I am going for eye gouges and ear drum slaps and he says what are you doing? I said well this is about self defense and I agree with Rich Dimitri's opinion that closest weapon closet target makes sense so that's why I went for the simulated ear slap and it would be effective, from what I have been told. I didn't mention Rich, but was well you could have just easily redirected him using Silat. I said yeah but that assumes I can pull off those 4 moves to my 1, ear slap. He says well you need to be concerned about what the camera sees. I said with all due respect what I need to be concerned about is the immediate threat and that is the guy attacking me. I will worry about the lawsuit and jail time later which wouldn't be a problem because he attacked me.

    Whom do you agree with? I obviously think I make more sense and am concerned that you fight like you train. I want to train with dirty fighting tactics, not more complicated graceful moves. He keeps mentioning well what if its your cousin get fresh with your wife you going to ear slap, eye gouge, and knife hand chop to neck. I said no I would attempt verbal de-escalation and then do something no lethal, but this is a SD. A SD class IMO should be teaching you how to end an attack as quick as possible, dirty or not. Maybe my attacks are a valid defense of why real SD can't be practiced full speed, because you could really hurt someone with a double ear slap, an eye gouge, or neck chop?

    TIA

    #2
    Originally posted by danielsaun View Post
    Whom do you agree with?
    I'm gonna say neither.

    Originally posted by danielsaun View Post
    I obviously think I make more sense and am concerned that you fight like you train. I want to train with dirty fighting tactics, not more complicated graceful moves. He keeps mentioning well what if its your cousin get fresh with your wife you going to ear slap, eye gouge, and knife hand chop to neck. I said no I would attempt verbal de-escalation and then do something no lethal, but this is a SD. A SD class IMO should be teaching you how to end an attack as quick as possible, dirty or not. Maybe my attacks are a valid defense of why real SD can't be practiced full speed, because you could really hurt someone with a double ear slap, an eye gouge, or neck chop?

    TIA
    Ear slap: practise a hook. Same thing for a neck chop.
    Eye gouge: practise your jab (depending on range of course, but if your opponents head isn't moving what's to practise?)

    Those are things that can be, and are, practised with aliveness all the time. Sounds like you need MT or Boxing.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by danielsaun View Post
      So tonight we are doing drills, slow speed, and my guru sees that I am going for eye gouges and ear drum slaps and he says what are you doing? I said well this is about self defense and I agree with Rich Dimitri's opinion that closest weapon closet target makes sense so that's why I went for the simulated ear slap and it would be effective, from what I have been told. I didn't mention Rich, but was well you could have just easily redirected him using Silat. I said yeah but that assumes I can pull off those 4 moves to my 1, ear slap. He says well you need to be concerned about what the camera sees. I said with all due respect what I need to be concerned about is the immediate threat and that is the guy attacking me. I will worry about the lawsuit and jail time later which wouldn't be a problem because he attacked me.
      I am all for questioning and explanations, but you sound like a dick in this situation.

      Whom do you agree with? I obviously think I make more sense and am concerned that you fight like you train.
      You said you were doing drills, so drills are different than how you fight.

      I want to train with dirty fighting tactics, not more complicated graceful moves. He keeps mentioning well what if its your cousin get fresh with your wife you going to ear slap, eye gouge, and knife hand chop to neck. I said no I would attempt verbal de-escalation and then do something no lethal, but this is a SD. A SD class IMO should be teaching you how to end an attack as quick as possible, dirty or not. Maybe my attacks are a valid defense of why real SD can't be practiced full speed, because you could really hurt someone with a double ear slap, an eye gouge, or neck chop?
      A self defense class should be teaching you techniques for specific situations. Every SD situation does not involve sending your ass to jail no matter what you think is appropriate. If you don't like what or how he teaches find another school.

      Comment


        #4
        If you are in someone else's class practice what they do. IF you are in a Silat class do what those guy do. IF you want to do your own thing get your own class and do or do it when you train at home. You can't go to a grappling class and start throwing strikes because you think it's effective or go to a striking class and start grappling because that's what you think works best. Whatever school you are training with keep the mindset that you are there to learn their take on martial arts and fighting.

        I train FMA and i've trained with a lot of different FMA groups. Each school seems to think their approach to the subject is best. When I train with them I don't argue and say my way is better. I just listen and nod when they tell me i'm wrong and need to do it their way, out of respect after all I did come to their class to learn. Also, that's why I hope to start my own class soon, so I can do things my way. If someone wants to tell me I'm wrong i'll let them try whatever they want when we pad up and spar, otherwise you're just arguing hypotheticals.

        Comment


          #5
          Man, if you think you know more than the instructor about what to train and how to train, why the fuck are you going to his class?
          Last edited by The Question; 7/26/2012 10:23pm, .
          Originally posted by Goju - joe
          being a dick with skill is only marginally better than being a dick without skill.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by jspeedy View Post
            If you are in someone else's class practice what they do. IF you are in a Silat class do what those guy do. IF you want to do your own thing get your own class and do or do it when you train at home. You can't go to a grappling class and start throwing strikes because you think it's effective or go to a striking class and start grappling because that's what you think works best. Whatever school you are training with keep the mindset that you are there to learn their take on martial arts and fighting.
            What he said.

            Danielsaun, do live in Darfur or something? Is there a reason why you mostly want to train things that will almost guarantee jail time in a first world country?
            Shut the hell up and train.

            Comment


              #7
              Ok, so my screen name is gonna give me away but....In My Humblest Opinion, you are working backwards in terms of SD. Nothing is gonna beat a well timed right cross, jab, hook, etc. I know we play with knives and guns, but at the end of the day it comes down to boxing, grappling and kicking to the groin (BAS RUTTEN!).

              Personally, I do not worry about the legal implications of what will happen, because if I am fighting it's probably because MY life or a LOVED ONE'S is in danger and there is nothing else I could do about it. Otherwise I am probably chilling at home, having a beer and not starting shit.

              Look, you can argue that: grabbing, biting, pinching or whatever is valid SD all day. But those are last ditch efforts and if you are resorting to them you've fucked up big time. You (hopefully) aren't training to just do whatever you want in a pinch. Learn what you are being taught, believe in what you are being taught and get better at it.

              Comment


                #8
                You guys have give me some good points to think about. I agree I should be respectful to the school and I believe I was. My instructor ask for feedback so I felt the need to give him some. I wasn't arguing with him we have a civil conversation. This change in tactics came about from participating in a martial arts events with people that had 30 years MA exp on me and it was do what you have to survive in a slow simulated event. I found that I was was out techniqued and experienced so I went to dirty fighting and the organizer was saying " this is your life do whatever you have to survive". He said he was pleased to see I was not afraid to get dirty. What's funny is the organizer is good friend with my instructor.

                I guess part of the challenge I am having is being so new, 3 months, that I am on info overload and a number of things we do don't make sense. I get a lot of information and it conflicts with one another so I am confused. I am very objective in life and so I tend to question a lot, because there are a lot of fakes and BS out there in life.

                I guess at this point, since money/time is limited, is just keep my mind open and mouth shut and take what I can and move on which will probably be soon.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by jnp View Post
                  What he said.

                  Danielsaun, do live in Darfur or something? Is there a reason why you mostly want to train things that will almost guarantee jail time in a first world country?
                  If it's a SD situation truly, I would not go to jail if you charge and attack me and I eye gouge and double slap your ears. You attacked me I was protecting myself. I am not talking about mutual combat.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by The Question View Post
                    Man, if you think you know more than the instructor about what to train and how to train, why the fuck are you going to his class?
                    Because I haven't found anything better yet.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by huge View Post
                      I'm gonna say neither.



                      Ear slap: practise a hook. Same thing for a neck chop.
                      Eye gouge: practise your jab (depending on range of course, but if your opponents head isn't moving what's to practise?)

                      Those are things that can be, and are, practised with aliveness all the time. Sounds like you need MT or Boxing.
                      I agree after reading on aliveness and we aren't very alive at all. Very little pressure testing.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by danielsaun View Post
                        You guys have give me some good points to think about. I agree I should be respectful to the school and I believe I was. My instructor ask for feedback so I felt the need to give him some. I wasn't arguing with him we have a civil conversation. This change in tactics came about from participating in a martial arts events with people that had 30 years MA exp on me and it was do what you have to survive in a slow simulated event. I found that I was was out techniqued and experienced so I went to dirty fighting and the organizer was saying " this is your life do whatever you have to survive". He said he was pleased to see I was not afraid to get dirty. What's funny is the organizer is good friend with my instructor.

                        I guess part of the challenge I am having is being so new, 3 months, that I am on info overload and a number of things we do don't make sense. I get a lot of information and it conflicts with one another so I am confused. I am very objective in life and so I tend to question a lot, because there are a lot of fakes and BS out there in life.

                        I guess at this point, since money/time is limited, is just keep my mind open and mouth shut and take what I can and move on which will probably be soon.


                        You said everything here.

                        You were training at a place whose techniques you question (because of ideology-effectiveness- and aliveness in training).

                        You experienced a wake up call-

                        Problem is- you'e still training at the same place.

                        Go to an ACTUAL 'self defense' school- somewhere that involves modern striking and grappling- with a Dog Brothers' philosophy on weapon combat.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by johnny_cage View Post
                          You said everything here.

                          You were training at a place whose techniques you question (because of ideology-effectiveness- and aliveness in training).

                          You experienced a wake up call-

                          Problem is- you'e still training at the same place.

                          Go to an ACTUAL 'self defense' school- somewhere that involves modern striking and grappling- with a Dog Brothers' philosophy on weapon combat.
                          I agree with you. I know some on this website think Senshido is shite, but it makes a lot of sense to me watching alot of YT vids with pressure testing done. I also looks like something my wife could learn or even my elderly Mom. I will look into that material and see if I can find an instructor in CO or if I take a road trip vacation maybe a one day live seminar in another state. I am willing to pressure test The Shredder as long as I don't lose my eye in class, LOL. I was just impressed after doing research on The Shredder that bouncers and cops use it.

                          I am trying to keep an open mind about MMA for SD. I guess I default to MMA=BJJ and I don't want to go the ground because I disagree with many on this site that all SD attacks and street fights go to the ground. That has not been my experience personally and you can watch many a YT fight where I see nothing more than a sloppy haymaker shot and then a clinch.........the clinch occurs because of sloppy technique IMO, maybe I am wrong?

                          I talked to my brother about this question, he used to bounce, train in MMA and boxing years ago and he thinks fight do go to the ground often. Even if they do I have a bad back and don't think I can roll BJJ with you guys. The Dog Bros, I used to live in OC, CA when they just got started. I wished I would have watched their park fights live. Those dudes are crazy and I have much respect for anyone that will fight with a bastone full blast with almost no protection.
                          Last edited by danielsaun; 7/27/2012 8:53am, .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by danielsaun View Post
                            I agree with you. I know some on this website think Senshido is shite, but it makes a lot of sense to me watching alot of YT vids with pressure testing done. I also looks like something my wife could learn or even my elderly Mom. I will look into that material and see if I can find an instructor in CO or if I take a road trip vacation maybe a one day live seminar in another state. I am willing to pressure test The Shredder as long as I don't lose my eye in class, LOL. I was just impressed after doing research on The Shredder that bouncers and cops use it.

                            I am trying to keep an open mind about MMA for SD. I guess I default to MMA=BJJ and I don't want to go the ground because I disagree with many on this site that all SD attacks and street fights go to the ground. That has not been my experience personally and you can watch many a YT fight where I see nothing more than a sloppy haymaker shot and then a clinch.........the clinch occurs because of sloppy technique IMO, maybe I am wrong?

                            I talked to my brother about this question, he used to bounce, train in MMA and boxing years ago and he thinks fight do go to the ground often. Even if they do I have a bad back and don't think I can roll BJJ with you guys. The Dog Bros, I used to live in OC, CA when they just got started. I wished I would have watched their park fights live. Those dudes are crazy and I have much respect for anyone that will fight with a bastone full blast with almost no protection.

                            Personally- I disagree with the assertion of "not all fights go to the ground= bjj not as effective" Also- look into Paul Vunaks biting/eye gouging stuff- it becomes FAR more effective when ADDED to knowledge of grappling/positioning.

                            Now- if you feel that learning ground-fighting is 'not SD' because going to ground is not the best choice- learn Dog Brothers perspective on martial arts.

                            They are ALL about dropping BS flow-y disarm techniques- and learning how to train systems that work.

                            From what you said to your instructor- it seems like "Die Less Often"- by Dog Brothers would be something you would like.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              In every class there is always that guy that has to argue the toss with the instructor,
                              though they usualy dont last long, either learning to STFU or are not made too welcome and leave

                              It wastes training time

                              Dont be that guy

                              Comment

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