What I hate about Bujinkan

[OldShintaro]

BJMills,

I totally agree, catch a punch with your chin, yea right, what drugs is he on.
Please don't be focused on the bullshit. There are plenty of techniques that work well.
The sparring that I did I was always in a slightly wider stance than natural with my left protecting my face and my right protecting the right side of my head. With blocking I used whatever part of my arm that stopped the punch. I hope that you don't think that in a fight, that looks like what you train in the Dojo.
"Battle field tested" To be honest I think I only heard that term in the mid to late 90's. But isn't every MA "Battle field tested" because only the people that survived the battle came home to pass on knowledge?
You know the way that it is taught at the moment, I am not surprised that think , what you think.

And despite that you think people don't stick around, some people still have faith that things will change. There are plenty of really good people in Bujinkan, it is just that their style is too confrontational for the typical wannabe complaining fairy Ninjer.

[BJMills]

I- and I think pretty much everyone on this site- know that sparring does not equal a real fight. But the key word is pressure testing. It's one thing to pull off a technique if you know exactly what punch or kick is coming, different if you don't. But I think you probably agree, so that's enough about that.

The point I was trying to make with the Judo clip was, people train Judo exactly the way they perform Judo. And that performance is against resisting opponents, which is much closer to what you're going to find in a real fight than someone who flies backwards or crumbles when you hit them with an omote shuto... after they've attacked you with the lunge punch you knew was coming.

My point is the way techniques are practiced in the Buj, even by the people that are held to a higher standard, those mysterious Japanese Shihan, they're just not going to fucking work against someone who is 1) not throwing a pre-planned attack and 2) resisting, when you try to execute your proper technique.

No, sparring is not a real fight, but sparring is pressure testing where you can either make the stuff you train work or not. If you practice perfect flawless ninjutsu (or whatever you want to call it) but have to change up your technique when you spar in order to be effective then there is something wrong with the way you are training.

So how about this, if you still think the Buj has something to offer when practiced correctly, what exactly is it? Because even the stuff with Hatsumi looks like larping.

Just to be clear, I'm not picking on the Buj specifically, there are plenty of non competative TMAs that I'd say the exact same thing about, the thread just happens to be about this one.

[OldShintaro]

I- and I think pretty much everyone on this site- know that sparring does not equal a real fight. But the key word is pressure testing. It's one thing to pull off a technique if you know exactly what punch or kick is coming, different if you don't. But I think you probably agree, so that's enough about that.

Well isn't that the point about sparring, close to real, as safely possible. It is not sparring if it is pre-planned, probably just dancing. LOL

The point I was trying to make with the Judo clip was, people train Judo exactly the way they perform Judo. And that performance is against resisting opponents, which is much closer to what you're going to find in a real fight than someone who flies backwards or crumbles when you hit them with an omote shuto... after they've attacked you with the lunge punch you knew was coming.

You can practise a technique as much as you like and maybe it will come off cleanly, but most likely not. Either your ex-Instructor didn't explain breaking balance or simply didn't know, even on your video at 4:18 he talks about that. An important point, but appears to be missed by a lot of people.
Agreed, the play acting by the training partner is way out of control. They should move but flying backwards is total BS.

My point is the way techniques are practiced in the Buj, even by the people that are held to a higher standard, those mysterious Japanese Shihan, they're just not going to fucking work against someone who is 1) not throwing a pre-planned attack and 2) resisting, when you try to execute your proper technique.

Then they are not taught correctly. Sounds like the old Rank give-away is more of a problem than I thought.
But agreed, sounds like the techniques that those guys do look and sound like shit.

No, sparring is not a real fight, but sparring is pressure testing where you can either make the stuff you train work or not. If you practice perfect flawless ninjutsu (or whatever you want to call it) but have to change up your technique when you spar in order to be effective then there is something wrong with the way you are training.

Then you were practising the wrong thing. Your "Flawless Ninjutsu" should only be there to demonstrate technique and where to move and strike. It serves no other purpose. I don't know about other martial arts, but I have never seen any Martial Artist pull off perfect technique in a real fight, regardless how they practise.

So how about this, if you still think the Buj has something to offer when practiced correctly, what exactly is it? Because even the stuff with Hatsumi looks like larping.

You need an instructor that understands how it really is, not a plastic instructor or one that got their Shodan from watching DVD's.
Hatsumi....yea I know....to be honest, I apply my BS filter when watching that shit. I don't know what is going on over there. Maybe he is getting old or just thinking "I can't believe that the people here believe this shit". And that's why he has a smile on his face.

[shinbushi]

I lived and trained in Japan and interpreted for both Hatssumi Sensei and Nagato Sensei for 7 years. Trained Booj from 1985 to 2010. And finally gave up on trying to 'aliven' my training. So now I train in Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ and when I can DBMA. Even in Japan it is slow mo lunge punches for uke. GET OUT NOW!!

[OldShintaro]

Shinbushi,

You have a wealth of information. If I had your exposure and experience with Bujinkan I would have simply started my own Dojo correcting the BS.
Just because something is moving in a bad direction you don't have to follow like sheep.

[BJMills]

OldShintaro, I think you have the wrong idea about me. I'm not nor ever was a Buj or any other kind of ninja. What I've been saying is, it's all bullshit. Even at the top, the guys that are supposed to be really good because they are Japanese and from the old school, they can't fight worth a damn either.

I also get the idea that you are misinterpreting Shinbushi as well with the following...

"If I had your exposure and experience with Bujinkan I would have simply started my own Dojo correcting the BS.
Just because something is moving in a bad direction you don't have to follow like sheep."

I think he's saying what I'm saying which is, it's not 'moving in a bad direction,' there was never any good direction.

What exactly do you think you're going to 'correct?' The stand up is sub-par, the throws are sub-par, they have no ground game, and the training methods are counter productive to developing proper timing and reflexes.

The only correction to make is to quit wasting your time with it and train a real martial art.

Repeat after me, there is not nor was there ever anything resembling a useful martial art taught by anyone affiliated or formerly affiliated with the Buj.

Look at old videos of Hatsumi training with his guys from way back. They are practicing the same nonsense.

Look at old video footage of Takamatsu...

This is your original ninja master. This is what he was teaching. There is no downhill from this point. This is rock bottom.

[OldShintaro]

OldShintaro, I think you have the wrong idea about me. I'm not nor ever was a Buj or any other kind of ninja.

So how do you know if you have never experienced it? I think some MA is shit but I don't comment on it because I have never done that MA.
Bujinkan is NOT....let me say that again...NOT Ninjutsu IT-IS-A-Martial Art. They do not teach, and I have never seen anything that I would call Ninjutsu.

What I've been saying is, it's all bullshit.

But again how do you know, you admit yourself you have never done it.

Even at the top, the guys that are supposed to be really good because they are Japanese and from the old school, they can't fight worth a damn either.

So how do you know that? Have you had a fight with them or is this still more of you opinion?

I think he's saying what I'm saying which is, it's not 'moving in a bad direction,' there was never any good direction.

I don't know his back ground, but I hope he chimes in and compares his early training to now.

What exactly do you think you're going to 'correct?' The stand up is sub-par, the throws are sub-par, they have no ground game, and the training methods are counter productive to developing proper timing and reflexes.

But isn't that just you opinion? Again you have never done Bujinkan.

Repeat after me....I will gain experience in something before I have an opinion and not be an arm chair critic.

You know what they say when you ASSUME.

Look mate, I can only comment on what is was like here in Australia, I have never been to the US of UK, so god knows how crap it was/is over there.
But seriously, I would never call any MA shit without first at least giving a try.

[ashkelon]

I was in a "good", progressive Dojo. They encouraged crosstraining, tried to introduce more realism, sparring, conditioning etc.
They didn't take the ninja part seriously and stressed severely that no Booj kata would help you in a self defense situation, though the wristlocks, kyoshu and throws might.
I was only shodan (3 years, 6 hours a week plus seminars) but when starting other arts, the first things I noticed:

- all the striking sucks. long range, exposed, telegraphed, ineffective. even if you compress the movements it doesn't work. that also means all defense kata against it suck because you defend against unrealistic attacks. there's no magic moment where it becomes more applicable.

- the throws are too messy and not pressure tested. the short "judo" style sparring is way to superficial to learn something as complex as gi throwing.

- the pressure point stuff, doesn't work on a conditioned opponent, but can be a fun way to control an overexcited friend. no need to spend years on it.

- wrist locks, joint locks. well, hard to train, might work but difficult to set up.

Most importantly though, when doing Sambo or Judo, things like the grappling, they are so much more precise, to the point. The body mechanics are clearly explained so that you always keep control. There are no such concepts in BBT because there is no pressure testing, however hard you get beaten up by your instructor.

Incidentally I think many people in the Bujinkan accept this and just want to have fun while doing something physical and getting into medieval Japanese culture / fantasy.

[OldShintaro]

Fair enough,
From my point of view,
the compressed form worked
Agreed, if the instructor has never tried to understand how to throw, they will never work.
I must admit I have only ever used pressure points when I had an opponent secured. Mind you that secure came from Judo.

Wrist Lock, I found the complete opposite, piece of piss to apply, only some of the more bullshit involved ones were stupid. But the joint locking concept can be applied to any joint which I have utilised, typically fingers, then on quickly to something else.

Agreed, the pressure testing is Gone now, God knows why??

Beaten up by the Instructor? Then I would say it is not a "Good" dojo.

Agreed, its turned some type of Fantasy culture.

Again, Bujinkan is NOT Ninjutsu. It is a Martial Art


Wow, I knew things had gotten bad, but WOW.

[ashkelon]

My first instructor had a high rank in Judo before leaning BBT for it's deadliness, how ironic is that.
My instructors didn't beat me up, but many people think going "100%" on a compliant partner makes up for no sparring.

Also, the compressed forms, they might work in some cases, but why would you train for them in such a roundabout way when you can just learn proper technique to begin with.

Anyway, small joint manipulation, lots of that. However, breaking someones finger will not win you a fight. Overextending a finger in the dojo will give you the impression you're dominating.

A wrist lock on a fully resisting opponent is very hard without first slapping them around. If you disagree, vid please :)

With regards to pressure testing, what kind of sparring situation / rules would you suggest to pressure test BBT? It would quickly become MMA. For me Combat Sambo is closest to what Bujinkan technically wants to be: striking, grappling with a vest, with a very permissive ruleset. Want to put Hatsumi against Fedor? :problem:

[OldShintaro]

I don't know who spew's this BS about "Battle field tested" and "Deadliness" but I think that they are off their meds. EVERY Martial Art can be said to be those things.
Why train in a roundabout way, dunno, works for though. If your referring to a long form then a short form study.
Agreed breaking someone's finger will not win the fight, I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. It is merely part of manipulation process. Were you ever told "Soften re-apply"? Sounds like BS, but how else can you manipulate a non-compliant opponent.
With ALL joint techniques, If I hurt someone, I at bare minimal expect it back. But to go out and hurt a training partner is a BS act. It is quick and easy to talk with your training partner to find out how hard or soft they want to go.

A wrist lock on a fully resisting opponent is impossible, but so is any manipulation that you want to do to them. I don't know why people don't get this! Nobody is going to let you do shit to them. Sheesh!

Everything looks like shit when it comes down to it. Nothing is pretty in a fight, anything goes. That's why its called a fight not dancing!

Again, what was removed back in 1994 / 95, here in Australia was the 80 - 90% pace sparring. Now of course you don't do BS, like line a low rank to a high rank, unless the high rank wants to let the low rank learn on him. And AGAIN NOTHING IS SCRIPTED / PRE_PLANNED / TELEGRAPHED. So guess what, people get hit without being able to block or move. Stiff shit! It is part of the learning process.
Better to learn it in the Dojo than on the street.

[OldShintaro]

Want to put Hatsumi against Fedor?

Fedor Emelianenko?????

????WTF A 80 year old man against a 35 year old man?? Weird.

[ashkelon]

how do you spar?

[OldShintaro]

Have read through the previous posts?

[ashkelon]

I did and you ignored when I asked you before.
How do you spar? You talk about getting hit and adapting your stance, but not about which rules, intensity or how often you spar.
Reason I ask is that many people seem to be confused about what sparring really is. Also, I used to spar in BBT but the skill level was so low it's not even funny, just bad kickboxing and ugly judo.
BBT techniques and training methods are inherently not suited to sparring effectively. So if you would have found a way to - and that's a big if - I'd like to see it. Do you sometimes spar with people from other arts?