American Schools Shaolin Kempo (and the BS I have dealt with)

[Omega Supreme]

Here, let me.

[Sisyphus]

Daggermouth,

You are facing a Trifecta combo of a questionable style, bad instruction and being overpriced. Oh and major attitude problems – it’s the daily Superfecta!

Your review did bring back memories of my time at Freddie's - before you were born - and to this day I may have had one of the better instructors in his “system”.

Lesson One Grasshopper,

You are not a student at these types of franchise places – you are an income stream – let’s recap the projected first eighteen months of study as hundreds-of-thousands of Ke?po students who have gone before you.

I wrote your place is overpriced versus the number of weekly classes offered (please re-confirm)?? At least one of Freddie’s innovative business differentiators was to offer a full-time studio with Afternoon-Evening-Saturday classes compared to a part-time TMA dojo.

Let’s round it to one-hundred dollars tuition per month, eighteen months @ 100 = $1,800.

During the first 1.5 years you will probably be offered four exam opportunities @ $50 so that is $200 profit less the “wholesale belt costs”. I would say these low rank exams have a 95% pass rate, funny thing.

But then come the private lessons – or should we say semi-privates – that’s where real money is – if you can convince the mark to invest in taking biweekly sessions to learn the more advanced techniques early or get specialized attention - that’s eighty more sheckels a month – times eighteen months is $1,440.

So now the student has invested over $3,400 and are now the shadow of getting a {insert color here} belt rank where you really start learning the deadly stuff!

This isn’t even talking about long-term contract scams which many of these type places often have.

[Daggermouth]

Sisyphus,

You are so right. After I had been training there for a few weeks there was some definite pressure for me to fork more money over to join privates because they are a "better deal." When I didn't there was some weird attitude coming from the owner.

Oh yeah! Another thing! I was supposed to test to be a yellow belt and I showed up to the morning class that happens before the test. I already paid the $50 testing fee (which is pretty damn high IMO). The GM then said that I don't have to take the test because I am an experienced martial artist so I can get my friend who stopped showing up to start coming to classes. It was weird because I didn't see how taking the test and getting my friend to start coming in again were related, but I took the offer. They still have my $50. That is money that is supposed to go to my next test but there's not gonna be a next test for me. I'm leaving before that.

[WoodyCorpus]

Dagger, seek life elsewhere. I can't certainly say if the situation are compareable but I train in American Kenpo 3-4 times a week, I pay 250 € a year and grading is continuous... And I get beat up all the time while sparring, which is awesome.

[Overcome]

count chocula

[Daggermouth]

So I officially left the school today.

I went to the class and it was being taught by the GM. It was going well. He "taught" me a throw that I already knew from my Kali training and we were going over a variation of a knife defense I already knew where the attacker holds a knife to your throat from behind. I had an issue with the very beginning of the technique. The GM had us actually grab the side of the knife blade upon initiation of the technique. After working through it he asked if we had any questions about said technique and I thought of you guys saying "I can't believe you didn't say anything!"

So I'm like, alright, here it goes. I told him that I was concerned about the fact that we actually are being instructed to grab a knife and in the street that'd be a good way to get your fingers chopped off with all the adrenaline coursing through your body. I was saying that the same technique would work if we just trapped the hand instead. He didn't like that one bit. He said that I need to worry about myself and and he got extremely defensive. He was angry that I wouldn't want to work the technique from start to finish the way he showed me. He said that my method wouldn't work because the attacker would be able to manipulate the knife. I know for a fact that that wouldn't be the case and was thinking that maybe he wasn't sure what I was tryin' to say (not that it would have mattered if he understood) and I said, "No, trapping the hand would totally work." He said "Would you like me to hold a knife to your throat and see if it works?" I said, "Yes." He got pissed at that and came over to me and was saying that I should just "shhhhhh." We were standing feet together and hands in the ready position in front of us. He walked over and acted like a friend who clasps someone on the shoulder except he more or less just hit me (hard enough to knock me off balance) open palmed on the shoulder. I didn't react.

Class ended.

I had a big ol' talk with his son (it's his son's school) and I told him I was leaving. I told him I didn't like the constant contradictions that kept coming up and I felt that I wasn't being taught anything. He said that I didn't listen and that my other martial arts got in the way. Honestly though, I was SO fucking respectful to them and I never questioned anything they did till that time. I told him that I felt if I was forking over more money to them then I would be treated better.

The scary thing about that school is that they back up their own bullshit under the guise of their "philosophy." I honestly think that they are incapable of training anyone who has had some sort of martial arts experience before because they can't hide the bullshit. His other students have never trained before and they just eat all that nonsense up.

And y'know what? I think it's bullshit that a "Grand Master" is supposedly immune from scrutiny. I think for him to actually get physical and hit me to show "dominance" or to "intimidate" me just shows weakness all around.

I don't think I'm gonna end up getting my $50 testing fee back.

[assk]

Daggermouth,

I must admit I am an american school's of shoo-in kempo trained black belt. I spent 8 years faithfully training under Master Pearl in Oregon, and although I did not have previous training, I know well how much of what you say is TOTALLY CORRECT. Zach especially is one of the most arrogant and down right stupid individuals I have ever had the misfortune of knowing. He dropped out of college after claiming he wanted nothing to do with the family business to have daddy provide for him. I have also suffered MANY classes taught by him and all of us here in Oregon agree with you completely- Zach does NOTHING but talk because he likes to hear his own voice and stroke his own ego. I have watched the system fall apart as the Master and his family have steadily become more and more greedy, alienating MANY chief instructors who owned their own dojos and chose to leave the system. I applaud you for standing up to Master Pearl, I know well how he responds to it and it's never pleasant. You are correct that there is no hope of ever seeing your $50 again, just be grateful you were wise enough to get out before you wasted years worth of income on their bullsh*t.

[GothMetalJunkie]

I train in Isshin-ryu. Very informal, but then again we do abide by codes of conduct and wear gis and all that good stuff. (Green Belt rank, Roko Kyu or 6th Kyu,so not very high). Dude, what the heck. I'd be able to deal with the arrogance in the Grandmaster because he's the Grandmaster, he's earned some arrogance. It's much more appealing when your Sensai or GM is humble because that's just more likeable and as karate-ka we should have a very humble attitude, but that's beside the point. WHAT THE HECK DOJO DOESN'T ALLOW THE STUDENTS TO LEARN FROM EACHOTHER? If you're not learning from eachother than what kind of school is it? I'm apalled by your experience, it happens way too much. Verdict: School's a hack job, the son may have some experience but is a bad teacher, the GM (and I completely agree with slamdunc here) is either very inexperienced of just has low ability. No one needs to brag about the violence they've caused or been involved in, it's not the karate way. EXTREMELY UNPROFESSIONAL. Telling a story is one thing, bragging is another.

[Tameshiwhaty?]

And all that in THOSE shoes lol

[It is Fake]

WHAT THE HECK DOJO DOESN'T ALLOW THE STUDENTS TO LEARN FROM EACHOTHER?

Quite a few actually, if it is a formal environment and it depends on the context.
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102847

So I'm like, alright, here it goes. I told him that I was concerned about the fact that we actually are being instructed to grab a knife and in the street that'd be a good way to get your fingers chopped off with all the adrenaline coursing through your body. I was saying that the same technique would work if we just trapped the hand instead. He didn't like that one bit. He said that I need to worry about myself and and he got extremely defensive. He was angry that I wouldn't want to work the technique from start to finish the way he showed me. He said that my method wouldn't work because the attacker would be able to manipulate the knife. I know for a fact that that wouldn't be the case and was thinking that maybe he wasn't sure what I was tryin' to say (not that it would have mattered if he understood) and I said, "No, trapping the hand would totally work." He said "Would you like me to hold a knife to your throat and see if it works?" I said, "Yes." He got pissed at that and came over to me and was saying that I should just "shhhhhh." We were standing feet together and hands in the ready position in front of us. He walked over and acted like a friend who clasps someone on the shoulder except he more or less just hit me (hard enough to knock me off balance) open palmed on the shoulder. I didn't react.

Well, to be fair, if you did this while he was teaching you were n the wrong. If you suggested this before or after class that is a different story. The way it is written it sounds like you called him out in front of other students. That's asking for trouble even if he asked for questions. Yes, I am that asshole that says, IRL, don't ask questions you are afraid to have answered. I still do it at the right time regardless of when I was asked. Unless, of course, there is a purposeful act of embarrassment involved in asking me the question.


That said if he hit you, the way you just described, that was utterly wrong.
I'm glad you left, but there is an etiquette even in shitty schools.

[Daggermouth]

I'm gonna have to agree to disagree there. With other teachers I've had, questioning technique was encouraged because you learn more by breaking it down intellectually. He really runs his school like a cult, and questioning him was considered taboo. You can label that as being "formal" but in reality it just shows weakness. I mean, he hit me. What a joke! The way I see it is I was paying for a service that this guy was unable to provide. And just because one labels himself a grandmaster does not make him one.

assk: I'm sorry that you had to go through that, but it makes me feel good that not everyone is blind to their bullshit. I played ball with those assclowns till it got too much to handle and I left. I played good, little obedient student but their contradictions and flat-out lies piled up way too fast. Hang in there, brother.


Some good did come from this though. Leaving this school inspired me to try out Next Generation MMA again and I've never been happier. It's really strange because I used to hate the whole MMA scene (it was the drunken fans), but this group is one of the best groups I've ever been with.

[It is Fake]

Never mind. Formal? Hahaha, you didn't see who that comment was directed at did you? I even quoted the poster.

We will disagree, it is all about the situation.

[csharp.negative]

Interesting video. I'm wondering what he would say about schools such as my own where the next generation of students all meet, see move and eventually get to train with their Sigung and Sidaigung and other "higher powers" that he talks about. Also, when people line up and run hand drills, don't boxers do that as well to warm up before shadow boxing and sparring? Isn't that the same thing as "lining up to train in a militaristic fashion"? Pardon me if I'm overstepping the boundaries of this thread.

[Mysfit]

Daggermouth,

I read this post while looking for information on these schools as well and I have to say, you sound like a spoiled child that got punished. It was not right for you to try to tell your instructor (with what I can tell) years of experience on you that they are wrong. In every art I have studied you must learn the basics before you can move on to the advanced and each move leads to another. We started out learning the L step to understand how to get on the inside of a strike but it leads to more nAtural movements. Even when you started to learn how to write you had to learn how to draw the letters before you could write in cursive.

As to Zach as an instructor, he is amazing. He knows aspects about the art that older adults can't pick up. What does it matter if he is the Master's son or not? Being a good martial artist is all that matters. He does tend to talk a lot, but this is more his young age and will change in time he just needs a nance to grow.

Please take this for what it is, I am older and I hope wiser, I have studied many arts in my time and have met many instructors both young and old and they are all different. It's too bad you didn't like it but don't talk negatively about things you know nothing about. A few weeks shows you nothing.

[It is Fake]

A few weeks shows you nothing.

Yes, a couple of weeks is plenty of time to determine if something is bad, good, mediocre or just plain wrong for you.