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    #46
    Originally posted by Cullion View Post
    That's not really true. I've seen several different martial arts practising throws like that without training anything like a Judo breakfall.
    It might help if you knew the difference between uchikomi and ukemi waza before you make comments.

    Ben

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      #47
      Problem with the Anderson Silva vid is that unless both parties have good control it can turn into a sparring round pretty quickly.
      It's happened to me when drilling like this with a newer guy.
      He'll throw two techniques,I'll move to throw 3 or 4, get part way through it & have the other guy trying to counter without giving me a chance to back out & let him start.

      All that happens then is that I either get the shits & speed up to the point where my training partner is unable to defend without backpedallng or get bored & spend the round throwing jab-pushkick only.

      Or we get yelled at by the instructor for going off script.Ha..

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        #48
        Originally posted by Rickko View Post
        Problem with the Anderson Silva vid is that unless both parties have good control it can turn into a sparring round pretty quickly.
        It's happened to me when drilling like this with a newer guy.
        He'll throw two techniques,I'll move to throw 3 or 4, get part way through it & have the other guy trying to counter without giving me a chance to back out & let him start.

        All that happens then is that I either get the shits & speed up to the point where my training partner is unable to defend without backpedallng or get bored & spend the round throwing jab-pushkick only.

        Or we get yelled at by the instructor for going off script.Ha..
        So the problem isn't with the drill, it's with the people doing it incorrectly. This happens a lot, sparring or rolling. That's what the instructor is there for - keeping the students on task and doing the drill correctly.

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          #49
          Originally posted by wingchundo View Post
          Unless your training is Fight Club, you're going to do complaint training in any martial art. I'm not really sure I understand what insight you're looking here. In my BJJ class, we drill specific techniques against compliant partners so we can learn the mechanics. It would simply be too difficult to try and teach an armbar against a fully resistant opponent. In striking arts, pad work is compliant. In judo, every throw is taught on a compliant partner at first.

          Like I said, I'm not sure really what you're looking for here.
          I don't think anybody's talking about fight club training here. Nor am I saying the armbar should be learned against a fully resisting opponent. In case you got the wrong impression I don't really think or know of anyone who trains this way.

          If you're confused look at some of the vids and examples others have posted. Hell, look at my example of the FMA drill from the op. You talked about drilling technique in BJJ, do you do any specific drills to train specific techniques? Like a guardpass drill? The armbar, triangle, omoplata drill? Any others? What do you like about the drills? What sucks about them? That's kind of what i'm getting at.

          Originally posted by WhiteShark View Post
          I didn't read any of this thread so if there is reasonable discourse here fuck you.

          OP I challenge you to Gong SAU! I stipulate that you can only compliantly respond to my attacks while I will be attacking full force with full contact.
          Can't we have a dance off instead? I recommend one of those mary poppins syle tap dance style showdowns. You can still go full force taps and i'll do compliant shuffle step taps though.

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            #50
            Originally posted by jspeedy View Post
            I don't think anybody's talking about fight club training here. Nor am I saying the armbar should be learned against a fully resisting opponent. In case you got the wrong impression I don't really think or know of anyone who trains this way.

            If you're confused look at some of the vids and examples others have posted. Hell, look at my example of the FMA drill from the op. You talked about drilling technique in BJJ, do you do any specific drills to train specific techniques? Like a guardpass drill? The armbar, triangle, omoplata drill? Any others? What do you like about the drills? What sucks about them? That's kind of what i'm getting at.
            The tone of your OP is fucked up. He was asking for a clarification of your point.

            Basically, you should have eliminated 80% of your post for clarity.

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              #51
              Since we Aikidoka are the biggest practitioners of compliant partner practice, let me chime in here. Does alive training necessarily have to be 100% full bore speed and power? At what point, does compliant become alive, or are they two roads which will never intersect?

              Case in point: While training in a compliant partner practice, I, as uke, look to see, first, if nage has successfully blended with my attack. This means, he avoided my strike, or neutralized my incoming force. If he hasn't, I let him know; by either making contact with him, or stepping out of the technique.
              Second, he is in proper position and actively defending himself from a possible secondary attack. This means he is positioned in a way I have very little, if any, opportunity to strike him or take his balance, and/or has his off hand positioned in a manner to address any opening that is left. If he fails here, don't hit him, or throw him; but extend the would be strike or maneuver at an appropriate rate of speed so he can recognize the opening he left. I never do this faster than the technique is progressing. I do as to not actually hit him, or throw him but to make him aware so he can adjust his technique.
              Third, as the technique progresses, I see if he has actually affected my balance and/or posture, and the amount of physical strength he is exerting to do so. If he isn't affecting my balance, or is using a lot of physical strength to, I again either strike, step out from, or maneuver to counter the technique, to make him aware he has not successfully affected my balance.
              Fourth, I am aware if he continues to maintain the effect on my balance and posture. If he loses it, then the technique is over, till he regains it.
              Fifth, When he throws or pins me, I check to see if he is on balance still and grounded, and whether he is using physical strength to pin or throw me, or if he is allowing me fall as I lose my balance or can no longer resist due to the positioning of my body. If he is trying to muscle me, I resist, or begin a counter; again just to make him aware that he is giving me an advantage by doing so.

              Now throughout all this, I have to let him, complete the technique as best as he can. Of course he will be stumbling through it as he makes mistakes, but to just stifle the technique serves no purpose either. We usually take one concept at a time in this. Sometimes, as a higher ranking student, you need to help steer the newer student through the technique. This way he gets a feel of the idea of the technique, even though he isn't really completing it. As he fixes his errors as he goes, he will someday end up with a solid technique. The learning curve is slow in Aikido for this reason. Plus, if all you did was stifle the technique or put up road blocks, you end up in a tug of war impasse, and nothing gets learned for either nage or uke.

              Now if we are training slow, and I am essentially stopping the technique at the points where the technique is failing, isn't that a form of being alive while training. I know there are many who just go with the flow in this style, and yes, it creates people who think they are doing something they are not. I have trained with many, who have really pretty techniques, when they train certain people, but can't perform the basic concepts, when training with others. Could this be due to the aliveness of the people they choose to train with?

              While training, I try to stifle someone's first couple of attempts if I can. This way, I use human nature to try and ensure they try to do the same to me when we switch.

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                #52
                Originally posted by Aikironin21 View Post
                Since we Aikidoka are the biggest practitioners of compliant partner practice, let me chime in here. Does alive training necessarily have to be 100% full bore speed and power?
                Stopped reading here...

                PROGRESSIVELY INCREASING RESISTANCE.

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                  #53
                  Originally posted by Aikironin21 View Post
                  Since we Aikidoka are the biggest practitioners of compliant partner practice, let me chime in here. Does alive training necessarily have to be 100% full bore speed and power? At what point, does compliant become alive, or are they two roads which will never intersect?


                  And, aikido specific:

                  http://www.dragon-tsunami.org/Dtimes.../articlea2.htm
                  Last edited by DCS; 5/26/2011 4:11am, .

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                    #54
                    Thank you for your post. Every Sensei I have trained with, encouraged this type training. I think the more dance like training, results from students wanting to emulate the smoothness and speed of experienced Aikidoka. It shows the value of being a good uke; and that being a good uke or harmonious doesn't mean just being able to fall when you are supposed to.

                    I have noticed, when visiting, or training at new schools, especially those where people have promoted rather quickly to third or second kyu or above, they expect you to just go with their technique because they are doing it and you're in the dojo. I know some who would rather not train with me, and others who seek me out as a partner, because of this. It is literally taking the ego of someone who is right around the corner to shodan, and busting it on the floor, when they discover their artsy technique fails on the basic level.

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                      #55
                      Originally posted by jspeedy View Post
                      If you're confused look at some of the vids and examples others have posted. Hell, look at my example of the FMA drill from the op. You talked about drilling technique in BJJ, do you do any specific drills to train specific techniques? Like a guardpass drill? The armbar, triangle, omoplata drill? Any others? What do you like about the drills? What sucks about them? That's kind of what i'm getting at.
                      It's not a matter of liking the drills. It's a matter of, there's no other way to learn a technique other than to drill it first, then try it out in a realistic fashion. Learn the technique in a controlled, limited environment where you can slow down, make adjustments and learn the details. Then put it to practice.

                      Again, I have no idea what is so difficult about this. Drill technique, try it out against a resisting opponent.

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                        #56
                        Originally posted by wingchundo View Post
                        It's not a matter of liking the drills. It's a matter of, there's no other way to learn a technique other than to drill it first, then try it out in a realistic fashion. Learn the technique in a controlled, limited environment where you can slow down, make adjustments and learn the details. Then put it to practice.

                        Again, I have no idea what is so difficult about this. Drill technique, try it out against a resisting opponent.
                        Nothing about this is difficult, you're just making it difficult for yourself I suppose. Who's saying there's no way to learn a technique other than to drill it then train it live? I think we both agree on that.

                        I think my OP may have been hastily written. I should have thought out what I was trying to accomplish with this thread a little more to better convey what I wished to discuss. As It's A Fake pointed out the initial tone of the thread starts out a little condescending. Most people who have been here for some time know both compliant and live training is necessary I was just trying start off and reiterate that, there's really no need for debate there. It seems some of the guys replying to the thread grasp what I was getting at with the OP and others don't.

                        To simply sum up and restate the OP. Lets talk about compliant drills!

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