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    Compliant training is better!

    I chose the thread title mainly because I figured it would grab attention and possibly piss off some of the live training fanatics here.

    Compliant drills have their place and although this site advocates live training I fear some newbs/visitors (like myself when I first lurked) might get the impression that no one here does compliant drills. Some reputable schools I've known of only let you do live sparring after an initial introductory period of compliant drills to ensure the newb doesn't spaz out and hurt himself or partner. I know in my BJJ class we do compliant drills against a partner offering minimal to increasing levels of resistance for at least the same amount of time we do "live" rolling. The same goes for my FMA training and other arts i've practiced.

    This thread is to discuss the value of compliant drills and any specific drills you might use to apply to your live sparring. Also, some compliant drills offer a degree of liveness (if that's a word) in that random attacks may be defended within a certain agreed upon ruleset that strictly separates the drill from true sparring. I'm interested in discussing the fine line between compliant drills and semi sparring drills. When you spar what are the agreed upon rules?

    Here's one example from the FMA style I train Balintawak. This is a drill known as "counter-to-counter" or cuentada. One set attacker selects random attacks from a group of specified attacks, the defender dosen't know what attack will come or in what order, occasionaly the feeder throws in his own personal styles but generally the attacks have been seen before by the reciever. All strikes are pulled and if everything is done properly generally no one gets more than an occasional bump or bruise.



    I think the intended purpose of the drill is to build a solid defense for the receiver and for the feeder to learn how to build combinations. The drawback to this method is some groups don't expand beyond this drill into real padded sparring. As a result some groups are very advanced at the drill but only within the preset range established within the drill.

    Discuss your experience with compliant training and list it's benefits!
    I'm purposely not going into the fact that live training is obviously necessary, anyone who's lurked here more than a minute or two knows that.
    Last edited by jspeedy; 5/21/2011 10:58pm, . Reason: lack of ,

    #2
    There's no way I would have learnt any ground skills without compliant drilling.
    Grappling ( for me anyway ) is just to technical,too much to remember,to learn on the fly.
    MT compliant drills can often be just as nasty as hard sparring,especially elbow defence drills...
    Or checking drills if I've left my shinguards at home.
    I only made that mistake once!

    Comment


      #3
      Everyone does compliant training. You get the move down, you get the principles down, you get the movement while performing the move down, you get the movement to the move down.

      In judo, or BJJ, Ne-waza randori is complaint. You choose a set rules (no leg locks, no slamming, no illegal grips, etc.) It's compliant training. Sort of.

      I think everyone understands your point. What school doesn't do compliant training?

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by shotfghter View Post
        Everyone does compliant training. You get the move down, you get the principles down, you get the movement while performing the move down, you get the movement to the move down.

        In judo, or BJJ, Ne-waza randori is complaint. You choose a set rules (no leg locks, no slamming, no illegal grips, etc.) It's compliant training. Sort of.

        I think everyone understands your point. What school doesn't do compliant training?
        I figured some might find it interesting to learn about the varying compliant training methods used in different styles and schools. Since we are all advocates of live training here I thought a discussion about compliant training would offer a change of pace.

        For example, I don't train judo so I have no clue what newaza is. Sure I could look it up on wikipedia but that's just one style and example. Wikipedia or other random sites might not offer a personalized anaylsis of newaza (for example only) and its benefits or shortcomings. IF practitioners of many styles posted their compliant training methods this thread might actually pass on a little knowledge to someone someday.

        Comment


          #5
          Well said.

          From personal experience, compliant judo training has allowed me to practice uchikomi (fit-ins) to the point where I can get the move down.

          In BJJ, I haven't gotten hurt and developed my pass/defensive game well while not worrying about leg locks or wrist locks.

          In kickboxing, while clinching, My ribs haven't been broken by some little Cambodian man, my shins are hurt but not to the point where I cant train anymore, and I havent gotten my nose displaced by an elbow.

          Comment


            #6
            For me, I've found that the more intense the motion involved, the more repetition is needed. I'll spend a lot less time repping RNC's on a partner than I will armbars from the guard, because the armbar requires more dynamic body motion.
            Likewise, I find that I spend a lot more time repping kicks than punches. Takedowns, especially complex stuff (uchimata, shoulder throws, etc.) require even more to "get the hang of."

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by TheMightyMcClaw View Post
              For me, I've found that the more intense the motion involved, the more repetition is needed. I'll spend a lot less time repping RNC's on a partner than I will armbars from the guard, because the armbar requires more dynamic body motion.
              Likewise, I find that I spend a lot more time repping kicks than punches. Takedowns, especially complex stuff (uchimata, shoulder throws, etc.) require even more to "get the hang of."
              Originally posted by shotfghter View Post
              Well said.

              From personal experience, compliant judo training has allowed me to practice uchikomi (fit-ins) to the point where I can get the move down.

              In BJJ, I haven't gotten hurt and developed my pass/defensive game well while not worrying about leg locks or wrist locks.

              In kickboxing, while clinching, My ribs haven't been broken by some little Cambodian man, my shins are hurt but not to the point where I cant train anymore, and I havent gotten my nose displaced by an elbow.
              Originally posted by shotfghter View Post
              Everyone does compliant training. You get the move down, you get the principles down, you get the movement while performing the move down, you get the movement to the move down.

              In judo, or BJJ, Ne-waza randori is complaint. You choose a set rules (no leg locks, no slamming, no illegal grips, etc.) It's compliant training. Sort of.

              I think everyone understands your point. What school doesn't do compliant training?
              .... and .... end thread.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by shotfghter View Post
                Well said.

                From personal experience, compliant judo training has allowed me to practice uchikomi (fit-ins) to the point where I can get the move down.

                In BJJ, I haven't gotten hurt and developed my pass/defensive game well while not worrying about leg locks or wrist locks.

                In kickboxing, while clinching, My ribs haven't been broken by some little Cambodian man, my shins are hurt but not to the point where I cant train anymore, and I havent gotten my nose displaced by an elbow.
                I think we're on the right track here, or at least what I had in mind with the OP. Any draw backs you can think of to not getting your nose broke/ribs broke/ankles/wrist broke?

                I know in BJJ I sometimes wonder if higher belts don't use or show an ankle/leg lock when i've left myself open. I'm thankful that some guys i'm comfortable and roll frequently with who also have grappling experience at least show a leg/ankle/toe hold when I give it. That's the only real draw back I can think of to not doing those specific sub with newbs. Of course I can see the newb spaz potential for guys that don't know each other and the injury that could result, so the loosely applied rule at my BJJ academy makes sense to me.
                Last edited by jspeedy; 5/21/2011 11:50pm, . Reason: spelling

                Comment


                  #9
                  Any draw backs you can think of to not getting your nose broke/ribs broke/ankles/wrist broke?
                  Rhetorical question?

                  The leg locks and wrist locks. Sambo guys are laughing at us and calling us pussies. Aikido guys are doing the same. Both sides have their points on the discussion right? As to why BJJ has compliant rolling that excludes these very deadly and technical aspects. Compliant training high and low in BJJ.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by shotfghter View Post

                    In judo, or BJJ, Ne-waza randori is complaint. You choose a set rules (no leg locks, no slamming, no illegal grips, etc.) It's compliant training. Sort of.
                    This isn't complaint training by definition. Just because there are agree upon rules it does not make the training compliant. Compliant vs non compliant training comes down to agendas. Complaint training requires a set attacker and a set defender AND a unified agenda. Meaning if you have one attacker grabbing a collar. And a defender does a wrist lock. The defender is attempting to perform the technique and the attacker is just trying to fall safely. They both have the same agenda.

                    However if you are doing a guard passing drill in BJJ. Its the defenders job to prevent the pass and the attackers job to pass the guard. These are two different agenda, even if you put alot of rules down (no subs, only a few passes allowed etc). This type of training is not considered compliant.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Aliveness involves "progressively increasing resistance" not "throw them in at the deep end, 100% hard sparring on day one and forever thereafter".
                      Last edited by Lu Tze; 5/22/2011 8:07am, . Reason: I don't need to insult people all the time.

                      Comment


                        #12


                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Lu Tze View Post
                          Aliveness involves "progressively increasing resistance" not "throw them in at the deep end, 100% hard sparring on day one and forever thereafter".
                          Thornton discusses this in his "Aliveness" video that we continually reference. Since most of the people/schools we are arguing with already have compliance entrenched as part of their training, it's the non-compliant part that we are pushing them to try.

                          Learning technique without drilling the "isolation" phase is mostly a waste of time.

                          Edit: A better title for this thread might have been, "The value of the isolation phase of drilling".
                          Shut the hell up and train.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Quoted from one of my KM Books: "The truth is, these limitations are necessary in order for beginners to practice the techniques; it's hard to practice a triangle choke if your partner is biting the inside of your thigh."

                            I'm going to adopt that as my personal position on the value of the isolation phase of drilling.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by shotfghter View Post
                              Rhetorical question?

                              The leg locks and wrist locks. Sambo guys are laughing at us and calling us pussies. Aikido guys are doing the same. Both sides have their points on the discussion right? As to why BJJ has compliant rolling that excludes these very deadly and technical aspects. Compliant training high and low in BJJ.
                              You let Aikido guys call you a pussy? Really?

                              I think a lot of the BJJ aversion to leglocks comes from the "gospel" that's been passed down.
                              1. If you teach new people leglocks, they'll never learn to correctly pass the guard.
                              2. Leglocks are oh so dangerous.
                              3. A lot of leglocks put you in an inferior position or scramble if they fail.

                              Hopefully as time goes on and more BJJ guys get exposed to and comfortable with lower body submissions, we'll see this tendency fade. Personally I'm glad that spazzy noobs at my school aren't trying to heel hook each other, but I think every decent grappler should be acquainted with the major lower body submissions at the very least to become aware of when they're leaving themself vulnerable. I know my whole open guard game changed after I started rolling with a Bayless Jiu-Jitsu black belt.

                              If I know the person I'm rolling with well enough and trust that they're not going to try cranking the submission on an unsuspecting noob or fight until something pops, I'll throw on (but not necessarily finish) a kneebar or toe hold if they leave themself open. I do have to admit taking perverse glee in repeatedly tapping people with the (perfectly legal) straight ankle lock when they leave their feet just hanging out in space.

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