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ADCC Eddie Bravo vs Royler Gracie 2!

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    #31
    Originally posted by Iainkelt View Post
    I just think that some, not all by any stretch but some, of the criticism that Eddie and 10th planet gets from BJJ guys/instructors is basically professional jealousy. He's taking jiu-jitsu in new directions and all the sudden you get kids who want to learn things that some instructors simply don't know and it's a turn off to those kids (even if that's stupid and harmful in the long run) who then lose interest. I've seen numerous local instructors, and guys who are very solid BJJ players, talk trash about 10th planet for years then all the sudden when they realize it isn't going away, guess who I see with a copy of Mastering the Rubber Guard and is trying to show Eddie's techniques?
    There seem to be a few gems in the system; functional techniques that is. But from my perspective, the 10P system is promoted as a whole new thing when it doesn't work without the fundamentals that came down through the Gracie Machado lineage to Bravo.

    I don't know how you guys actually train, I'm talking about perception.

    That and Bravo is perceived as re-packaging old stuff as new stuff. Twister & Lockdown for example.

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      #32
      Originally posted by tao.jonez View Post
      There seem to be a few gems in the system; functional techniques that is. But from my perspective, the 10P system is promoted as a whole new thing when it doesn't work without the fundamentals that came down through the Gracie Machado lineage to Bravo.

      I don't know how you guys actually train, I'm talking about perception.

      That and Bravo is perceived as re-packaging old stuff as new stuff. Twister & Lockdown for example.
      Agreed. I think that you really need to have fundamentals in place before you start trying to play some of the more esoteric stuff, whether we're talking about 10th planet or the latest guard craze in BJJ. But the flip side to that is the reality that jiu-jitsu is, or should be, constantly evolving and changing and growing. When it stops is when it declines and becomes static and outdated. Resistance to change when done simply because people don't like "new" things, is in my opinion very dangerous.I understand the perception out there about 10th planet just being a lot of gimmicks and in some cases of individual grapplers it's probably fair. I just don't like seeing some of the broad generalizations is all, when I know that a number of very talented and experienced grapplers have built 10th planet techniques into their game.

      I'd also agree about the perception about repackaging though in Eddie's defense he has, to the best of my knowledge at least, been very open about the fact that the twister (as "renamed" by Rigan as I recall)came from freestyle wrestling and that the lockdown is basically a judo move that he picked up. He just has built a game around those moves in a way that other people haven't, or at least not to that extent. I agree that he has marketed and built his image a lot, but in that regard I don't see a difference between himself and the Gracies. They just did it first and now don't like others singing out of their hymnal and dipping their hand in the collection plate.

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        #33
        Virtually all the distaste for 10P I have heard has been, not dislike of the material, but with noobs who attempt to use it as a substitute for learning proper fundamentals. I’ve never heard anyone claim that Bravo or 10P advocate doing this, but it’s nonetheless annoying when beginners pull out crazy shit that falls apart without a solid platform.

        The other dirt I’ve heard has been, not of Bravo’s technique, but of his marketing.

        Originally posted by tao.jonez View Post
        That and Bravo is perceived as re-packaging old stuff as new stuff. Twister & Lockdown for example.
        I’ve heard one Brazilian instructor mention Bravo’s name in disgust: “He says he invented rubber guard, pheh”, saying that he saw somebody compete in the World’s with rubber guard back in the 80’s. You also have things like this site (reference to same event? No idea):
        Originally posted by Jake Whitfield
        As more and more fans entered the sport, Eddie Bravo released two more books. These books are two of the nicest, most professional looking books ever produced on jiu-jitsu and they promise to make anyone that reads them actually be able to tap their opponents just by looking at them (slight exageration). Lots of people buy these books and they freely buy Bravo's claims that he invented the Rubber Guard. Eddie Bravo might have invented the term Rubber Guard, but Nino Schembri was winning World Championships using the Rubber Guard when Eddie Bravo was only a blue belt.
        Googling Nino Schembri will turn up a lot of sites claiming that he invented the rubber guard. I’m not qualified to comment on veracity.

        Comment


          #34
          As I see it, the problem isn't Eddie Bravo at all. The problem is white and low blue belts who watch a few YouTube videos of his moves and then waste way too much energy unsuccessfully trying to pull them off in sparring since they lack the solid basics you really need to be able to start doing funky shit.

          Effective but unorthodox fighters like Bravo, Imanari and Sudo didn't start learning flying heel hooks and rubberguard on their first day, they had years of training in basics before being able to win with such tactics. A lot of low-level grapplers seem to forget that.

          Edit: Bleh, Petter beat me to it.
          Last edited by Shawarma; 5/13/2011 12:41pm, .

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by Iainkelt View Post
            I agree that he has marketed and built his image a lot, but in that regard I don't see a difference between himself and the Gracies. They just did it first and now don't like others singing out of their hymnal and dipping their hand in the collection plate.

            Comment


              #36
              I eagerly await both those matches!

              Comment


                #37
                Do you think Royler has studied up on Rubber guard or any other element of Eddie's game before the match? to what extent?

                is there a 10th planet book sitting somewhere in Royler's bookshelf?

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by GIburner View Post
                  Do you think Royler has studied up on Rubber guard or any other element of Eddie's game before the match? to what extent?
                  Enough to say "if that fuck puts his shin across my throat, I'll break his ankle"

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by Petter View Post
                    Virtually all the distaste for 10P I have heard has been, not dislike of the material, but with noobs who attempt to use it as a substitute for learning proper fundamentals. I’ve never heard anyone claim that Bravo or 10P advocate doing this, but it’s nonetheless annoying when beginners pull out crazy shit that falls apart without a solid platform.

                    The other dirt I’ve heard has been, not of Bravo’s technique, but of his marketing.


                    I’ve heard one Brazilian instructor mention Bravo’s name in disgust: “He says he invented rubber guard, pheh”, saying that he saw somebody compete in the World’s with rubber guard back in the 80’s. You also have things like this site (reference to same event? No idea):
                    Googling Nino Schembri will turn up a lot of sites claiming that he invented the rubber guard. I’m not qualified to comment on veracity.
                    Here's the full article:

                    http://www.jiujitsuforums.com/wiki/E...vo_-_the_facts

                    (edit: didn't see the hyperlink in the original post)

                    No offense, but this sounds very angry and butt-hurtish.

                    - Eddie gives props to Shrimbri and others regarding the Rubber Guard. Again, he didn't invent it, he systemized it.

                    - Eddie explains in his books that the Twister was a wrestling move called the Guillotine (but his instructors nicknamed it the twister since there is already a choke in BJJ called the Guillotine). Although not an invention, again, he systemized it for BJJ.

                    - Eddie explains that the Lockdown is something he remembers picking up and wasn't sure where. It wasn't until later that he found out it was an old Judo move. Once again, he seystemized it for BJJ.

                    Decided to check out his site:

                    http://www.trianglejj.com/

                    Hmmm, me thinks he may not be impartial.

                    The problem with the criticisms is that they tend to come from those on the "other side" or who may have something to gain from discrediting the man. It would be like all the criticisms of Windows coming only from the Mac-heads and Linux geeks (did I go there, yeah, I went there).

                    Anyways, whoever wins, who cares. Maybe one of Eddie's students will avenge him if he loses. Then one of Royler's students will avenge him. The next thing you know, we have a great rivalry which will probably cause a huge technical advancement in BJJ.

                    Oh, after the match, they will both go to get high, eat at Five Guys, and have a laugh at how they played everyone...(Quinton Jackson/Rashad Evans-style)
                    Last edited by datdamnmachine; 5/14/2011 12:58am, . Reason: (edit: didn't see the hyperlink in the original post)

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by datdamnmachine View Post
                      Again, he didn't invent it, he systemized it.
                      Originally posted by datdamnmachine View Post
                      Although not an invention, again, he systemized it for BJJ.
                      Originally posted by datdamnmachine View Post
                      Once again, he seystemized it for BJJ.
                      Originally posted by datdamnmachine View Post
                      It would be like all the criticisms of Windows coming only from the Mac-heads and Linux geeks. (did I go there, yeah, I went there)
                      Well, since you went there . . .

                      It sounds like we're in agreement that 10thPJJ is not innovative or revolutionary but that EB repackaged and heavily marketed concepts/ideas that are not his own.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        I'll go with Gracie.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Actually, I'd like to go on record with this tale:

                          I went to a cheap grappling tournament in SoCal. I hadn't been to a promotion by this particular brand in over a year. I remembered them being very small, but they had apparently exploded in size. The promoter said he was pretty sure it was due to the price being about half the norm. The price is probably what encouraged several schools to bring whole teams. But I was still surprised that the place was abuzz because Josh Barnett was there.

                          Was he? Looked like him to me. But I spotted someone else. The man in question, in fact. He had some beard happening, a baker's boy and dark glasses. I didn't think it was all that effective a method to go incognito, but I didn't see people bothering him like I did Barnett, so it was probably working better than I gave it credit for.

                          Why do I tell you this? It's not a brush-with-stars story. I'm not cool because I was in the same highschool gym with two well known grapplers. It's because the tournament was full of buttscooters wearing magic pants. All the way down to novice there were kids dragging their asses and attempting to pull high guard.

                          So whether or not it's the promoted style by the man himself, the narrow-focus game happens. And not just with kids who learn it on youtube. If you look at his own matches, you'll see much the same.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Finnegan View Post
                            Well, since you went there . . .

                            It sounds like we're in agreement that 10thPJJ is not innovative or revolutionary but that EB repackaged and heavily marketed concepts/ideas that are not his own.
                            Uh no, try reading that post again...or really any of the posts in this thread other than your own.

                            Here's a newsflash, virtually every single move that the human body is capable of performing has been done by somebody, somewhere, before. In this day and age, virtually nobody is really "inventing" anything. For instance, people get moves named after them because they have success with it in a notable format, such as the Von Flue choke, the D'arce, the Iminari etc. Eddie has never claimed to be the "inventor" of every move in his system and in fact regularly names move after the people he gets them from. But he IS unique in that he has built a game around certain pieces in ways that other people haven't. Obviously his style, or at least elements of it, have struck a chord with a lot of people, including some who get butt hurt over it because it doesn't come stamped with the Gracie triangle.

                            So the idea that Eddie is somehow just riding on others' coattails is simply not consistent with reality.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Seems to me there is a hell of a lot more to 10th planet jj than just the rubber guard, and the use of other styles of guard is advocated where appropriate in that system anyway. There is also a strong focus on other elements already discussed, i.e. lockdown. Also, of course, a top game.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                My preditction:

                                Bravo will pull half guard. Gracie will be cautious controlling from top. A late pass will give the match to Gracie on points.

                                I like the 10th Planet stuff. I have a pro membership to his site and train with them when I have the opportunity. I am a bigger fan of the half guard and twister side control than rubber guard but the 10th planet system is much more than just the rubber guard.

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