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How we can save Aikido: An honest opinion.

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  • Aikininjer
    replied
    Originally posted by Ignorami View Post
    Our ukemi is not dissimilar to judo ukemi I think. It would be wise at an early stage I think to differentiate between ukemi and 'aikido rolls'.

    Aikido rolls are a symptom of excessively choreographed practice. Even elaborate rolling ukemi feels different to this (IME), because of the distance, connection, and source of the driving energy behind it.

    In addition to the ukemi as just safe falling, aikido ukemi also ought to include other absorbing an attack in a non-resisting but effective way. The best way I can think of explaining what I mean by this to non aikido people is to think of tomo-Nage (sp) in judo. Assuming I understand that throw correctly, it functions like a sacrifice throw?

    Big rolls without connection to your opponent exist in aikido (and can be fun), but good, responsive, reactive and proactive ukemi should be fundamental.
    This is pretty much everything I would want to say, too.
    To the OP: Why even bother mentioning Aikido in the title if you're not restricting the Ukemi to Aikido specific Ukemi?

    Leave a comment:


  • Yoj
    replied
    This is an interesting dvd to watch if you are interested in this malarky:



    As I recall, one of the thing that Amdur sensei does is approach aikido ukemi as being already a failure in terms of their 'performance' aspect. Aikido is, possibly, the product of 2 skilled people trying to take each others center and throw them, from that perspective one would maintain posture as well as one could until it was clearly lost and then still follow the ukemi through in a manner that kept one the safest, considering the other person intends you damage.

    In aikido normally, a point is reached where uke just gives up, changes his mind, and launches himself as prettily as he can, Amdur suggests this is a poor approach to training, and the correct response is to use it as an opportunity for damage limitation.

    It was thinking about stuff like that that gave me a different view of what aikido could be, if myself and a partner were messing around, loosely, and neither one of you is the uke, then how do you know who is meant to do the big fall, we'd end up bouncing each others postures until eventually someone would get the upper hand, but even in probable defeat you still do what you can to save yourself, because it's not yet over, it would even turn into crappy groundwork at that point too. That gave me some faith in aikido, just not most aikidoka.

    It's valid too, when you train to win compliantly with no aliveness, thats an obvious failing, but when your entire ukemi system assumes who is the loser, then what?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
    replied
    Originally posted by Colin View Post
    Which has zero relevance to my actual argument. Not the Argument in my first post, nor any argument in any subsequent post.

    This is called the straw man fallacy. You are attempting to argue against a position that nobody is supporting or representing.
    ????

    Your first post is about reshaping Aikido ukemi into ukemido so that it can be used in MMA and SD.
    When I point to you that there's habit in Aikido ukemi that can be exploited against the ukemidoka by the fighters who have trained in Judo throws I'm creating a strawman?

    So your point is to create a breakfall art to move around an opponent without any use when you get thrown by that opponent?

    Leave a comment:


  • Ignorami
    replied
    Our ukemi is not dissimilar to judo ukemi I think. It would be wise at an early stage I think to differentiate between ukemi and 'aikido rolls'.

    Aikido rolls are a symptom of excessively choreographed practice. Even elaborate rolling ukemi feels different to this (IME), because of the distance, connection, and source of the driving energy behind it.

    In addition to the ukemi as just safe falling, aikido ukemi also ought to include other absorbing an attack in a non-resisting but effective way. The best way I can think of explaining what I mean by this to non aikido people is to think of tomo-Nage (sp) in judo. Assuming I understand that throw correctly, it functions like a sacrifice throw?

    Big rolls without connection to your opponent exist in aikido (and can be fun), but good, responsive, reactive and proactive ukemi should be fundamental.

    EDIT: say "I think" again motherfucker. I dare you. I double dare you.
    Last edited by Ignorami; 4/08/2011 2:07pm, . Reason: Repeat allowed for possession by Samuel l jackson

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin
    replied
    Originally posted by Zendokan View Post
    My point is (and this is MY point, mileage may vary) that a part of the ukemi of Aikido is not competable with the ukemi of Judo (especially not for newbies), but a superset for that rare occassion where you can use it in a safe way.
    Which has zero relevance to my actual argument. Not the Argument in my first post, nor any argument in any subsequent post.

    This is called the straw man fallacy. You are attempting to argue against a position that nobody is supporting or representing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
    replied
    Originally posted by Colin View Post
    Cmon this isn't always true, and furthermore good breakfall training does NOT equal 'airborne'. Also, I do Judo, so what's your point?
    I never said that breakfall training equals 'airborne', I said that with a lot of throws in Aikido once uke is in mid air, tori will let go and that this created the habit to continue rolling out of a throw.
    Like you said, not with all the throws tori will let go, but in Judo tori will almost never let go, making the mechanic of rolling out of a throw impossible. So if uke makes a wrong judgement in his fall and thinks that he can roll out and bend his knee, but tori keeps a tight grip on his arms it is going to hurt on impact with the mat.
    I speak also out of experience, started with Hapkido and went later on to Judo.

    My point is (and this is MY point, mileage may vary) that a part of the ukemi of Aikido is not competable with the ukemi of Judo (especially not for newbies), but a superset for that rare occassion where you can use it in a safe way.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin
    replied
    Originally posted by DCS View Post
    Even if there are various kinds of safe landing in aikido (depending of the technique one is receiving) Zendo is mostly correct.
    Correct about what? That there is little value in breakfall training, or that the goals of said training are too ambitious?
    Please imagine for a moment that this has nothing to do with Aikido, and the only breakfalls that are trained are the best kind of breakfall for such techniques as:

    Double leg takedown
    Hip throws
    Shooting body lock

    ie: Techniques that people actually use.

    Leave a comment:


  • DCS
    replied
    Even if there are various kinds of safe landing in aikido, depending of the technique one is receiving

    Zendo is mostly correct.
    Last edited by DCS; 4/08/2011 1:37pm, . Reason: video link

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin
    replied
    Originally posted by Zendokan View Post
    In Aikido tori will let go of uke once uke is "airborne" so that uke can roll out of the fall, which has created the habit of falling with a leg bend so that it's easier to roll.
    Cmon this isn't always true, and furthermore good breakfall training does NOT equal 'airborne'. Also, I do Judo, so what's your point?

    Leave a comment:


  • Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs
    replied
    Colin, while the ukemi in Aikido is great, there's a fundamental difference with the ukemi in Judo which could get you hurt.

    In Aikido tori will let go of uke once uke is "airborne" so that uke can roll out of the fall, which has created the habit of falling with a leg bend so that it's easier to roll.

    In Judo tori won't let go of uke. Tori will keep control of the arm to guide uke to the mat and that's why uke "smacks" into one place and can't roll out. Out of safety a Judoka will fall with his both legs straightend.
    The only Aikido style that I have seen use this same principle is Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido.

    You do not want to fall Aikido fashion in a Judo throw (your knee bend in a 'smack' in one place throw) and since most Combat Sport fighters are trained in a style that uses these same principles (Judo, SAMBO, Wrestling, BJJ, etc...), there isn't very few demand for Aikido ukemi in MMA.

    That doesn't mean that it is a waste of time, but like every technique the fighter should know in which circumstances to use a certain technique. If he gets thrown and 'tori' loses the grip an Aikido roll-out would be good to getting back immediatly on his feet, else Judo ukemi would be preferable.

    If you want to 'save' Aikido and Hapkido, start a school where the minimum requierement is that students should have a Judo Shodan (or the equivalent in other grappling arts) before they can start to study Aikido.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin
    replied
    This is more from a SD perspective than an MMA perspective, but if you have been thrown to the ground, and you are close enough to be kicked in the face, yet you are not close enough to smother a kick attempt with a takedown or shoot of any type, I think rolling backward to reset your distance is a perfectly favourable outcome.

    In addition to this, it's not about Aikido-specific breakfalling. The reason that Aikido is the case in point is because during Aikido training (overly compliant drilling) you will be thrown to the ground probably 2 to 3 as many times as you would during a judo, wrestling, or JJ class. This means you get more breakfall practice.

    The point here isn't to improve modern MMA.

    The point is to retain what are probably the only relevant valuable waza in a modern fight (the ukemi) in a dying system.
    Last edited by Colin; 4/08/2011 1:16pm, .

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  • tao.jonez
    replied
    Originally posted by Colin View Post
    If there is a further implication, it is that falling safely in an expert or well-trained manner will enable a potentially quicker recovery of a bad position involving open space between you and an assault.
    OK, but why Aikido-specific breakfalling? What seems to me to be specific to aikido are the big wheel type rolls. Seems like very few of the takedowns in MMA lend themselves to this type of recovery, since there are no aikido type throws (that I've seen).

    You said the point is "breakfalling, rolling safely, learning how to roll behind someone (or indeed through them, if the technique is appropriate)". Out of all that, breakfalling seems to have some potential, the rest is garbage under MMA ruleset.

    Why not devote that time to train judo breakfalls and positional recovery? Or just focus on control in the post-throw scramble? Rolling away allows both parties to re-set. If you're the party that just got thrown (therefore needs to breakfall), that's probably not to your advantage.

    When they change the ruleset so that the "rolling out of the way of a strike to control the sword arm from behind" becomes necessary, THAT's when to start aikido break-roll training.

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin
    replied
    It's saved my ass from generally being a clumsy bastard too.
    Falls that may have seriously injured me, I have sustained minimal damage from due to practised Ukemi. (ie: I've never broken a bone, and it's not for lack of trying).

    Leave a comment:


  • Permalost
    replied
    Ukemi has saved my ass dozens of times while skateboarding. In da str33tz!

    Leave a comment:


  • Colin
    replied
    To clarify - I'm not representing the Ukemi as a combat tool outside the realms of potential personal safety with regard to safe falling.

    If there is a further implication, it is that falling safely in an expert or well-trained manner will enable a potentially quicker recovery of a bad position involving open space between you and an assault.

    Leave a comment:

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