my Ninjutsu research: The facts are super stealthy!

[ninpolives]

Hello all, this is my first post and like most Ninjutsu people who post here I have noticed a lot of heated words exchanged between bujinkan practitioners and those who practice other arts. Now, this is probably the point where you expect me to write a million words saying that all you guys are mean and nasty, and you should just shut up and do your own thing...but actually, I want to open up a civil and open-minded discussion. Little kids call names and make things up...respectable adults usually should not.
I have a fairly diverse martial arts background. My profile goes into it at length, but I will just sum up and say that I have studied Shotokan, Kodokan, JKD, BJJ, TKD, and more recently, I have been fortunate enough to study two different kinds of Bujinkan martial arts.
Yes, you read that correctly. There are two kinds of Bujinkan arts. In only 3 months of practicing this art, I have sampled them both. The two kinds are:
the OLD way and the NEW way. To put it simply, the old way was hard and dangerous. Sparring and Randori were not uncommon, while training injuries, on the other hand, were quite common. The toughness of Hatsumi's early students was noticed by all who trained with them, and this certainly contributed to Hatsumi-sensei's reputation as a good teacher. Anyone who has researched Bujinkan has surely noticed the numerous references to the fact that the training changed at some point to the "new" way, which is mostly based on forms, soft 1-on-1 drilling, and an over-emphasis on Takagi Yoshin Ryu (the Koryu Jujutsu style which is part of the Bujinkan system). I have noticed a lot of the people who practice the "new" way are fat, slow, and do not move like fighters or ninja. I have taught Karate to a few people before, mostly in an informal way, mixing in other things I have picked up, and I remember looking at one Bujinkan student and thinking: "Man, if that guy was one of my students, I'd tell him to lose that big fat gut and that arrogant attitude or I wouldn't teach him a thing." This is why I honestly understand why you guys make fun of Bujinkan so much. With fluffbunnies like that out there, giving us all a bad name, it's no wonder some people think our style is weak.
That being said, there are exceptions. Some teachers do it the old way and some do it the new way. In his book "the grandmaster's book of ninja training", Hatsumi admits that the training was softened down a bit, saying that he felt people could learn quicker if they didn't have to spend time recovering from injuries. Although I can see his logic, I believe he made a mistake.

Before this gets brought up, let me go ahead and say that debates regarding the historical legitimacy of Ninjutsu styles are pointless. This is because Ninjutsu has almost always existed as a secret style. How could anyone ever prove or disprove the closely guarded family secrets of centuries ago? It's not possible. Everyone tells a different story and we have no way to investigate thoroughly.This is why Ninjutsu has been used by con artists like Ashida Kim and Robert Bussey (the guy who trained scott morris and steve jennum) and let's not forget christa jacobsen. Me, I'm willing to take it on a little bit of faith because Hatsumi's version of the whole ninja history seems much more plausible to me. Most people present the ninja as having been assassins and mercenaries. Hatsumi says that the original ninja were the defenders of Japan's Buddhist temples, and their arts evolved from the temple arts of fighting monks. He says that the ninja were basically survivalists, living in a time of great chaos and near-constant war, and so they developed skills to work their will without being known. I don't believe the old "cadre of assassins" line because that's what the "legitimate" histories say. Well, who do you think wrote those so-called "legit" histories? the people who were in charge at the time, of course! and that means the Samurai. Now really, if you published something good about Ninjas in feudal japan, how long do you think it would be before some guy in a topknot showed up and beheaded you?
At one time, there were over 100 ryu of Ninjutsu known to exist in Japan. That much is fact. For all we know, they might all have survived in secret to this day, but we have no way to know. The point is that the people who have taught ninjutsu to the public are the exception, not the rule. When it has been taught to the public, it has often been watered down. If you want to understand the art, you first need to understand this.

[W. Rabbit]

Son, you are in more trouble than if a hundred real ninjas knew your name.

This should not have been your first post.

[Feryk]

At one time, there were over 100 ryu of Ninjutsu known to exist in Japan. That much is fact. For all we know, they might all have survived in secret to this day, but we have no way to know. The point is that the people who have taught ninjutsu to the public are the exception, not the rule. When it has been taught to the public, it has often been watered down. If you want to understand the art, you first need to understand this.

Okay, I'll go first, and I'll keep it civil. Ninpolives, first you say it is impossible to verify styles because of 'secret family style'. THEN you say the bullshit above, and even better - 'that much is fact'.

Great. I believe you. I believe you so much that I have no doubt you can produce the evidence of this fact, and put it on the board here. References, and scan of the original documents would be prefereable.

So let's see it, and then AFTER your facts have been verified, we can discuss the huge logical flaw in your contradictory arguement.

[Kintanon]

Hatsumi's version of the whole ninja history seems much more plausible to me.

Do you also believe in the flying spaghetti monster, the super moon, and that the mayan calendar marks the end of the world in 2012? Because every one of those is at least as plausible as Hatsumi's version of ninja history.

[Permalost]

I have noticed a lot of the people who practice the "new" way are fat, slow, and do not move like fighters or ninja.

Or what you think a ninja moves like.

With fluffbunnies like that out there, giving us all a bad name, it's no wonder some people think our style is weak.

People unhappy with themselves are often escapists, and the ninja fantasy has all the likely elements- danger, secrecy, cool black uniforms that hide your jowls and stuff, unique terminology, and Japanese women with hidden daggers. It would be weird if ninjutsu wasn't full of doughy nerd types.

In his book "the grandmaster's book of ninja training", Hatsumi admits that the training was softened down a bit, saying that he felt people could learn quicker if they didn't have to spend time recovering from injuries. Although I can see his logic, I believe he made a mistake.

I believe he made the art more marketable to the masses, and this has worked out well for him.

Before this gets brought up, let me go ahead and say that debates regarding the historical legitimacy of Ninjutsu styles are pointless. This is because Ninjutsu has almost always existed as a secret style.

Ninjutsu has also existed as a plot device for drama, from Japanese theater to movies and such. For this reason, if you want ninjutsu to be taken seriously at all, historical legitemacy is an absolute must.

How could anyone ever prove or disprove the closely guarded family secrets of centuries ago? It's not possible.

Maybe not prove, but the evidence will support or not support it.

Well, who do you think wrote those so-called "legit" histories? the people who were in charge at the time, of course! and that means the Samurai. Now really, if you published something good about Ninjas in feudal japan, how long do you think it would be before some guy in a topknot showed up and beheaded you?

Pieces of evidence don't need to be complimentary.

At one time, there were over 100 ryu of Ninjutsu known to exist in Japan. That much is fact.

I thought arguing historical legitimacy was pointless? Do you have a source for this figure?

For all we know, they might all have survived in secret to this day, but we have no way to know.

So is ninjutsu like the Loch Ness Monster?

When it has been taught to the public, it has often been watered down. If you want to understand the art, you first need to understand this.

If you can't know for sure what the original art looked like, it's hard to call it watered down.

[Lindz]

Should I assume by "take it or leave it" that you just did a brain dump and have no intention of engaging in further discussion?

[Feryk]

I would also like to make the point that many styles of JMA have been 'watered down' and mass marketed to Westerners. The Japanese aren't stupid. They are quite happy to recieve payment for their knowledge - but that doesn't mean you are entitled to it all.

I have seen firsthand Western masters walking around with high rank that know less than I have been shown. And I'm damn sure that there are people who look at me and think the same about me.

[Dave R.]

Dux Ryu Ninjitsu > Bujinkan

[Kintanon]

You mean like Judo? That's totally watered down for western consumption which I'm sure is why it's not anywhere near as effective as the traditional japanese jiujitsu it was derived from; And BJJ is just further watered down Judo, so clearly it might as well be a bucket of steaming shit in compairson to the original JJJ!

Watered down argument is fail.

[Feryk]

You mean like Judo? That's totally watered down for western consumption which I'm sure is why it's not anywhere near as effective as the traditional japanese jiujitsu it was derived from; And BJJ is just further watered down Judo, so clearly it might as well be a bucket of steaming shit in compairson to the original JJJ!

Watered down argument is fail.

Not really what I meant. My particular style of Karate involves the kicking, punching, blocking, etc. that all Karate styles have, but it has other techniques in it as well - things that came from the SYRJJ side. Movement, some stances, locks, pins, etc.

There are 5th Dans walking around right now that don't know them, and don't know about them. They were never taught AFAIK.

And I wouldn't call BJJ 'watered down' Judo. I'd call it 'refined'. From what I know of it's origins, Helio focussed his particular training on the newaza part of the curriculum. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. That ended up giving birth to a new style. That kind of evolution is different from just arbitrarily teaching one thing and not another to different students.

[Kintanon]

OHHH... So you're mostly talking about styles that are already fairly shitty just shitting themselves up further in random ways.

Or you could be talking about the natural proliferation of techinques in different directions. My instructor doesn't use the same shit that his instructor used because his style and body type are a little different. He tends to to teach the stuff HE uses with occasional forays into other stuff. It's not that he's refusing to teach us shit, it's that the class naturally trends in that direction. As a consequence he has been shown techniques that he may never show us simply because he hardly ever uses them. Not because they are SEKRET TEKNIKS!

By the same token various other instructors all tend to teach mostly their own game and style. Some gyms are almost without leglocks, some are light on takedowns, others trend in various other directions. That's neither watering down, nor some conspiracy to keep knowledge away from people it's just the simple fact that it's HARD to transfer a lifetime of knowledge to people in less than a lifetime.

What is important is that the techniques you do retain are high percentage techniques that work under pressure and the you practice under pressure. If you do that then it doesn't matter whether you got taught the 32nd hidden variation to leopard hugs the snake. The shit you DO know works.

[Feryk]

I must not be as clear as I think I am being. Sorry if this isn't coming out correctly.

I don't disagree with anything you just said. Of course you will use the techniques that work best for you, and naturally, you would tend to teach that which you know works. That is NOT what I am referring to.

There are people walking around with advanced rank who don't know half of the art. They are not aware that they do not know it. The techniques are not 'sekrit' at all, but they were not taught them.

I do know that when I spar with them, and use a pin/lock or takedown, they give me a stern look and say 'don't do that, it's not Wado'. To the point where they don't teach breakfalling because 'it's not Wado.' Makes sweeping dangerous.

And it is Wado. Is that more clear?

[Kintanon]

Why do you get to define Wado?

Who defines Wado? Where is the technique library for Wado codified? If a group of high ranking Wado people get together and make a list and say, "This! This is Wado!" and everyone in their schools follows their rules, then they have a Wado federation and that IS Wado for them and if the people from your side don't bother teaching your shit to everyone then after a few generations your shit is GONE and Wado is what that federation says it is.

That is not necessarily watering down either. It's the evolution of the art.

What I want to know is WHY you think someone would deliberately withhold techniques from their students?

[Styygens]

Oh boy... I haven't got time to read all this now, but... SUBSCRIBE!

[Ignorami]

I did booj for 18 months. By my maths that makes me 6 times more qualified than the OP to defend ninjutsu.

I shan't though.

Styggens, As the respected voice of ninjing here, I'd love to know if you started with a thread like this, then managed to earn respect later, or if you were wise in your early days here.

I nearly did it with an 'aikido is misunderstood' thread when I first joined. I even got as far as typing it up. I and my arsehole are pleased I held it in.