Can we all just come to an agreement about Krav Maga?

[Cayvmann]

... I didn't bother to read the whole thread. The whole derail on the firearms training has lowered the content of this thread.

The idea that you are giving advice on tactical shooting with no real experience I find amusing to say the least....

Seriously!

The idea that you didn't read the whole thread to get context for his posts nullifies any point you might have though you had. I read the whole thing and didn't get the impression he thought he was an expert, at all. We could get down to a "no true scotsman's" argument and nobody should be giving advice about anything.

If you had anything that would actually refute the points he was trying to make, that might make for a good argument. Otherwise you would be lowering the content of this fine derail.

The fact is, that a lot of professionals call the darned things clips, wrong or not. A lot of shooting magazines, ( heh, magazine ), call them clips off and on also, just because the world knows them as clips.


I have learned about what to look for in KM training though.

[Devil]

Does it matter? It's like people who don't like you to call them guns. I don't really see the point if everyone knows what you are talking about then it should be fine. At least, that has always been my attitude. I know a lot of guys who get bent out of shape over stuff like that. I've heard that a lot in the past especially when I was on the shooting team. :)

Referring to a magazine as a clip exposes you as a nasty civilian who shouldn't be taken seriously in discussions related to firearms or tactics.

[Kovacs]

The only krav maga school I know is the one I've been attending for the past 2 months so I have no idea about the average quality of KM schools or of my own school for that matter. What I do know is that my teacher is Israeli, former IDF and that after 2 months my cardio has improved and Ive learned some useful stuff. I know its useful because Im practising it against fully resisting opponents and it works. And with 2 vs 1 drills and suprise-attacks I'm more alert about my surroundings then I was 2 months ago. If this is indicative of the average KM school then I'd say KM is pretty good.
Eventhough I have no experience in another MA most of the other students do (BJJ, TK, MMA'ers and even some kung fu guys). And they say KM is helping them to adapt their style for non-ring/sport use; multiple-opponents, get in get out mentality, keeping it simple etc.

Just my opinion. Let the ridicule commence :)

How do the surprise attack and 2v1 exercises work?

[It is Fake]

So, you are an "expert" with firearms, and you call a magazine a clip?

Ben

Shhhhhhhhh no he isn't remember he said so.

[judoka_uk]

How do the surprise attack and 2v1 exercises work?

Both take place in the showers and commence with a soap drop.

[Himura]

Of course, you can post whatever the hell you want, it's YMAS, but don't expect everyone to take you as seriously as you take yourself.

Here's the thing, I've wrote up what I thought was wrong with the shooting tactics in the video. I also gave my experience with firearms because another user asked for it not because I called myself and expert or decided to pat my own back. If you have an issue with what I said about what I saw the person in the video doing wrong then talk about that. Saying it's not officially called a clip therefore you know nothing about firearms, and your entire post is invalid is just bad logic. If you don't want to take the comment seriously then offer a real reason like Gezere did which I was more than willing to admit my ignorance of.

Pistols are related to the Krav training system at least that particular system so it is valid to talk about it in this thread so far as to talk about the tactics used. I'm I could just as easily say things like don't expect me to take you say seriously because you didn't read the entire thread. I didn't do that though, did I? I don't think that is a valid reason for doing that. If you have issue with the argument I made about tactics then we can talk about that. The only thing that I've got from you, Judo Jim, and Devil is herp derp it's not a clip it is a magazine therefore you are an idiot who should never discuss firearms again even though I'm not going to actually talk about anything of substance you posted.

Rzero, do you have verification that he is former IDF? There are a lot of guys that make that claim to attract students at least in America they do. It would be better if you had videos so people could see it. There are a lot of Judo, MMA, and BJJ guys who do Aikido that doesn't make Aikido super effective. I'm not saying you are wrong; it could be a good school. Also, is it really a surprise attack if it happens during practice? Unless you guys randomly ambush each other on the street? That would be hilarious.

[Jim_Jude]

I disagree. I've heard cops, military personnel, thugs, people in movies, etc. all refer to it as a clip while it doesn't make it technically accurate, it does put it into common use slang that everyone understands so it really doesn't make a difference. It isn't the same as arguing truck vs car. It's more like getting you getting into an argument with a BJJ guy over the proper name of a submission technique he is using. You can both argue until your blue in the face, but at the end of that day, it doesn't really matter, and you should have spent that time training. So, to quote my shooting instructor: "Is it relevant to your shooting ability? No, then shut up and shoot."

You could have just said "I know you're right but I just don't care because my slang sounds more cooler." That would have saved time.

I did, however, make an effort to refer to it as a mag after that post so more people wouldn't bring it up again or argue with me over something that I honestly don't care about. It seems like after explaining myself the first time and trying to adjust my words in posts after that so it wouldn't be brought up again was quite useless. This is the last time I will address it.

Good. We'll all wait for the next time you use incorrect slang while attempting "the voice of experience."

It is not relevant to my original critique of the video, or the subject of this thread. So unless there is someone out there who had no clue what I meant when I said clip, but would have understood it had I said magazine then I just don't care. Essentially, this has been a colossal thread derail over a word usage that I used one or two times and had already corrected in the following posts for all of those anal retentive people out there. The sad thing is that I'm adding to the thread derail be responding to you...You could have just sent me a PM instead of posting about something that has already been covered and has no relevance to Krav on here. Just a thought. So can we all agree to disagree and get back on topic?

Watching you rant is fun though. Why would I want to keep it all to myself? LOL
(& WE are going to agree that you are wrong to prefer slang to correct terminology)

[Jim_Jude]

As for my specific complaints about the video I noticed that he turns the pistol to the side in order to pull back the slide, he drops to the ground on the reload for no apparent reason, he also pulls the handgun back towards his body on the reload.

You don't need to turn your handgun gangsta style in order to pull the slide back. He could have left it vertical and not took the time to turn it to the side then back vertical before aiming again. Keeping it vertical can save time on the movement and on aiming since you are still pointing at the target...

& so to answer your apparent lack of knowledge:
- when reloading it is SOP for most tactical units to either seek cover or take a knee to make oneself a little a target as possible. This is elementary
- when reloading, esp in an urban environment, close quarters etc the time it takes to reload is the most likely time you will be rushed. Hence, for effective weapon retention it is kept close to the body to prevent a disarm. The movements are also smaller for reloading, less chance of dropping a magazine etc
- when the goal is to keep the weapon oriented on a possible threat, it's biomechanically more efficient to simply rotate the wrist while chambering a round rather than trying to maintain a vertical hold and reaching up over the top (reaching up & over could also obscure vision downrange etc). It's better to have both hands perform simple movement than to have one hand perform an unnecessarily complicated one. Speed drills for reloading revolvers are much the same, both hands can perform a simple movement so that the weapon can remain in the primary firing hand...

I could go on but I'm bored.

[Himura]

(& WE are going to agree that you are wrong to prefer slang to correct terminology)

That is fine. I know using slang bugs some people. My dad used to get mad when I used slang. I never claimed that it was technically correct terminology. I said I don't care and everybody understands what I mean so stop worrying about it.

As for the SOP for most tactical units to take cover, I've already explained that I don't think he was drilling to take cover in that instance due to later footage. As for the speed reload, I was taught differently for high school tactical shooting competitions, and I've heard the guys who are world champions in tactical shooting say differently than what you are saying when it comes to reloading and tactics. There is a valid argument to be made that they are simply shooting targets not real people so they don't know what they are talking about, but that is opening a whole can of worms since the military and police hire people like that to teach tactical shooting. That argument could go on for years and never come to a decent conclusion.

If it was me, I would probably want to hit the ground make myself as small as possible and shoot from there if I had to shoot in a real life situation where I was stuck out in the open. That is my personal opinion. Like I said, I've heard different things from different people. You are/were in the military so I'll assume you know about what you are talking about at least somewhat since I don't what your job in the military is/was.

I never claimed to be an expert. I offered my opinion on some things that I noticed that I was taught was incorrect. Our shooting coach was a local police officer. I was just going by what he and my dad taught me plus articles I've read that were written by world class tactical shooters.

I know the local police department teaches the speed reload as I described it, but they are a really small police department since I live out in the middle of nowhere. On that note, aren't you forced to use a speed reload while keeping the pistol on target for you military pistol qualifications? I know for a fact that the US Navy does. That is also the way the Navy teaches the reload to everyone in boot. Mind you most of the pistol instructors were civilians at least that was the case for my friend when he went through a few months ago. there were MA's, GM's, etc. there too, but they didn't do the actual firearms instruction. I thought that was kind of weird when he told me about it. I can't speak about modern Army practices since my dad got out shortly after Vietnam, and I don't know anybody from the other branches that well.

[Gezere]

I disagree. I've heard cops, military personnel, thugs, people in movies, etc. all refer to it as a clip while it doesn't make it technically accurate, it does put it into common use slang that everyone understands so it really doesn't make a difference. It isn't the same as arguing truck vs car.

I am trying to be nicer than the rest but it is hard to believe you heard any active duty military refer to a magazine as a clip. That is something that is beaten into you over and over and over again. Hell I did some of the beating. Proper nomenclature is key. Because if someone asked me to pass them a clip I am handing him 10 rounds. If they say pass me a magazine I am handing over at least 30.

[Gezere]

On that note, aren't you forced to use a speed reload while keeping the pistol on target for you military pistol qualifications? I know for a fact that the US Navy does. That is also the way the Navy teaches the reload to everyone in boot.

No one is force to do a speed reload during qualification. The only thing you HAVE to do is keep the weapon oriented down range. I just requalified on the M4 and M9 a few months ago and I also carried both down range (until they tool my 9 away)

[Evergrey]

Found some videos of "Dennis Survival Ju Jitsu" aka Hisardut aka Krav Maga (that whole generic term thing again). Reminds me a lot of kyokushin. I cannot say its the best out there but if your training with this level of contact than your certainly not the worse either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCKxf...feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCieA...eature=related

What confuses me the most about this is their guard... their arms are all way out there to the sides. I noticed that they were all soaking a ton of blows instead of blocking them too, which is kind of a war of attrition...
I wouldn't call it Kyokushin because of the way they are holding their arms in guard. But at least they are fighting with contact.

My sensei and I attended a "self defense course" at a local convention recently out of curiosity. It turned out that the people running it were krav maga people. After class, one of the people teaching (who did give the disclaimer that he was not an instructor beforehand) told me that his school was taught by a guy from Israel who trained Israeli troops... though this does seem to be something that is claimed a lot.

They were nice, and a lot of the stuff they demonstrated could work. Mostly fairly sensible. Really basic tricks to get out of a choke, etc. It seems that the blocks they were teaching were more the re-directing kind than the deflecting kind, if that makes any sense. The woman who was teaching said that one needed to be completely relaxed and not escalate the situation by putting any power behind the blocks. I kind of felt that if you are being flat-out assaulted, the time for worrying about escalation is kind of past, and it's time to worry about protecting yourself long enough to get the hell out of the situation. But that's me.

I did pick up a couple of useful little tricks. There are a million and one ways to get out of a choke or a grab, but I certainly don't mind learning one or two more.

I have heard that a lot of krav maga is about defense against stuff like knife attacks. When a person in the class asked how to defend against someone trying to stab you with a knife, the female instructor replied that you should hit them in the wrist on their knife hand with the blade of your hand (knife hand, ya know?) to numb it and make them drop the knife. At that moment I said "uh, that's a pretty big gamble there..." and she moved the class along pretty quick.

Now, I will say that I HAVE had my arm hit hard enough in just the right spot (on a nerve) to make it stop working for a few seconds, though I'm not sure I would drop something I was holding... and I know that limb destruction can have an effect in a fight *peers at bruises all over her arms* but even for someone who is very highly trained and skilled, hitting someone in just that spot with enough power to numb them is not easy. Someone who only takes an hour and a half long self defense course is probably going to end up either completely failing to do more than just kinda hit the person in the arm, or impaling their hand on the knife instead of hitting the wrist. You know, if you don't have a lot of practice, you should probably not try to karate-chop someone right next to live steel.

The man teaching was friendly though. He came and spoke to my sensei and I, and when we told him we did Kyokushin, he sorta flinched and said (to my sensei, not my fat ass, hah) "oh uh, nevermind, you could probably wipe the mat with me."

When I asked him about this bear hug escape they were doing where you were supposed to drop down while hooking and pulling apart the attacker's wrists, he was nice enough to let me demonstrate how someone fast could get you in a choke while you were crouching down there.

I decided I really couldn't judge the style by a couple of people anyway, but even if I was going by them, I couldn't really go by a beginner's self defense course, so I invited the gentleman to come to my dojo's next open sparring day, which mostly has Kyokushin people, MMA people and the like. There's some other styles who show up too- we have at least one Shorin Ryu guy who takes classes with one of the Kyokushin instructors once a week, and a Wing Chun guy, and a number of others. The guy was friendly and polite and a good sport, so I figured he'd do fine. He hasn't contacted me though, so I doubt he'll show up. Too bad, I was curious about how he'd do. Kind of wanted to see it in action during heavier contact sparring...

I really don't know enough yet to say what I think of the style on the whole. I know that for some people it has this hardcore reputation, and for others it is seen as a joke. I would like to see it in person in an alive, non-compliant fashion, because some of the things we practiced seemed to leave some openings that could be exploited... but of course there are always counter-counter moves too.

*shrug*

I do like to watch people in open sparring matches between styles. It would be cool if they showed up. Even if it turned out that they couldn't fight well, I am sure I could learn something from it. It's great to watch good fighters and pick up some "what to do" type ideas. It's great to watch crappy fighters and pick up some "what not to do" type ideas.

Not that it saves me when it's my turn on the mat, but hey, either one might give me a few more seconds before I go flying...

So, I propose that a sampling of krav maga people get invited to throwndowns and open sparring days. In the name of science!

[Jim_Jude]

That is fine. I know using slang bugs some people. My dad used to get mad when I used slang. I never claimed that it was technically correct terminology. I said I don't care and everybody understands what I mean so stop worrying about it.

I think you're graduating from n00b to some brand of mall ninja. Congrats.

As for the SOP for most tactical units to take cover, I've already explained that I don't think he was drilling to take cover in that instance due to later footage.

He's either out in the open (& so takes a knee to reload), he's drilling reloading on the move, or he's behind cover while reloading. What footage are you talking about?

As for the speed reload, I was taught differently for high school tactical shooting competitions, and I've heard the guys who are world champions in tactical shooting say differently than what you are saying when it comes to reloading and tactics.

Where was this "high school tactical shooting competition", & who where these world champions in tactical shooting you were talking to?

There is a valid argument to be made that they are simply shooting targets not real people so they don't know what they are talking about, but that is opening a whole can of worms since the military and police hire people like that to teach tactical shooting. That argument could go on for years and never come to a decent conclusion.

Can you name some of these civilian "champions" that the military is bringing in to teach? Civilians with NO LEO or Military service? because if a "civilian" is retired LEO/Military, they're not really civilians.

If it was me, I would probably want to hit the ground make myself as small as possible and shoot from there if I had to shoot in a real life situation where I was stuck out in the open. That is my personal opinion. Like I said, I've heard different things from different people. You are/were in the military so I'll assume you know about what you are talking about at least somewhat since I don't what your job in the military is/was.

If you're clearing a house and your primary weapon malfunctions seriously, you draw your sidearm and move from room to room and lay on the deck every time you have to deal with a threat???

I never claimed to be an expert. I offered my opinion on some things that I noticed that I was taught was incorrect. Our shooting coach was a local police officer. I was just going by what he and my dad taught me plus articles I've read that were written by world class tactical shooters.

Well, if you "don't care" about the differences in the most basic terminology, what the hell are we talking about then???

I know the local police department teaches the speed reload as I described it, but they are a really small police department since I live out in the middle of nowhere. On that note, aren't you forced to use a speed reload while keeping the pistol on target for you military pistol qualifications? I know for a fact that the US Navy does.

Really? You "know for a fact"? what's your source? outside of your own experience that is

That is also the way the Navy teaches the reload to everyone in boot. Mind you most of the pistol instructors were civilians at least that was the case for my friend when he went through a few months ago. there were MA's, GM's, etc. there too, but they didn't do the actual firearms instruction.

Sucks for your friend, I had East coast SEALS at my boot camp in addition to the gunners, they loved chiming in on the pistol range... & there were no "forced speed reloads". Somebody would have shot themselves or someone else.

Here's a short vid of US Army pistol quals. Notice the speed reload.

The most important thing I was taught about reloading was "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is FAST". Repeat as necessary.

Here's some drills going on at a SEAL Team 6 range. Notice the extreme concern about the "speed reload"

& notice he's using a slightly modified Glock, w/o real "drop-free" magazines, more like "shake & fall out" magazines. Or clips. Whatever.
(***& who says that SEALs don't use Glocks???***)
Obviously speed reloading isn't a big concern for even Naval Special Warfare Development Group, so there's no doubt in my mind that your "Navy friend" wasn't learning anything too high speed.

I thought that was kind of weird when he told me about it. I can't speak about modern Army practices since my dad got out shortly after Vietnam, and I don't know anybody from the other branches that well.

I'd love for you to just admit you are full of shit & stfu, but I won't be holding my breath.

[Rzero]

How do the surprise attack and 2v1 exercises work?

1 attacks barehanded, followed with someone with a rubber knife. Second drill both were attacking at once. That was more about positioning yourself so that the unarmed attacker was in the way of the armed attacker.

The teacher often randomly selects a sparring group and tells them to attack another group. Couple of weeks ago we had a drill where 1 was in the center with people running around you and the teacher would randomly select people who then would attack the person in the center. Some with, some without knives. Could be just 1 person. Could be 3. Tuesday he even turned the lights off in the middle of a sparring session (open hand) to distract us. Stuff like that.

Both 2 vs 1 and knife drills are more about creating distance so you can get the fuck away. Knife disarming is only to be used if you have absolutely no other choice.

(Keep in mind, english isnt my first language so I cant really describe it like I would want to.)


BTW Jim_Jude, hitting the wrist so that the attacker might drop the weapon is indeed silly. The purpose of it should be to either 'swat' the knife hand away to create an opportunity to flee or to block it and counter. At least thats what Im taught.

[Jim_Jude]

BTW Jim_Jude, hitting the wrist so that the attacker might drop the weapon is indeed silly. The purpose of it should be to either 'swat' the knife hand away to create an opportunity to flee or to block it and counter. At least thats what Im taught.

Where was I talking about that? (seriously, I don't remember discussing that. Did I?)

& BTW, here's some explanation (maybe true, maybe not) about the "Israeli Method" of pistol handling. The High School SpecOps Tactical Expert Marksmen should pay special attention to the gangsta-style section entitled "Charging the Weapon During Presentation".