Can we all just come to an agreement about Krav Maga?

[Himura]

Not a firearm expert myself but shouldn't it be called a magazine instead of a clip

Does it matter? It's like people who don't like you to call them guns. I don't really see the point if everyone knows what you are talking about then it should be fine. At least, that has always been my attitude. I know a lot of guys who get bent out of shape over stuff like that. I've heard that a lot in the past especially when I was on the shooting team. :)

I've had bad experiences with Krav in the US. I went to observe some classes of Krav awhile back and they seemed bad. Other than the pistol work, I think that video was a good example of Krav.

[Mario915]

Well, sight picture can be important when using a rifle, however most agencies only practice with a pistol for target at 25-30 yds. He drops to the ground to simulate taking cover, that is the first thing most soldiers are taught. Take cover or die.

Also if a weapon runs out of ammuntion the slide locks to the rear, you dont need to charge again.

[Himura]

The problem is that dropping, coming back up, and aiming takes more time and makes you a target longer than a speed reload would. If you actually had cover, you wouldn't be shooting like that anyway. Only the bare minimum needed to fire would be presented. Furthermore, I don't think he was simulating taking cover because later on in the video they simulate taking cover by having actual things to take cover behind on the range. I don't really buy what you are saying.

Nor does any of this actually explain the ridiculously sloppy reloading procedure. Bringing the pistol off target, turning it to the side, watching as you insert the mag, and then finally getting back on target and firing. He did this every time I saw him reload.

I just went searching youtube for some examples of what good instruction would be, and if you want to see some proper pistol techniques, watch Todd Jarrett videos. He has some amazing speed reloads and gives great advice on how to shoot properly. He's one of the best instructors that I've ever seen. He explains everything step by step. You can learn a lot just from watching his instructional videos. I kinda wish I would have known about them in high school.

[Gezere]

Competition shooting and Combat shooting two very different thing. I've never see a speed reload in combat and no one is worrying about that shit. Drop down behind cover (because you are either shooting over cover or around it) reload, reengage.
Also turning the gun sideways allows for a better grip on the slide. Not all guns are good for coming over the top (Jericho 941 for instance) you tend to not have that problem with the sideways grip. I agree he shouldn't take his eyes of the target (that wasn't Itay shooting btw) but nothing wrong with the sideways grip.

[Himura]

Competition shooting and Combat shooting two very different thing. I've never see a speed reload in combat and no one is worrying about that shit. Drop down behind cover (because you are either shooting over cover or around it) reload, reengage.

Maybe, I didn't explain myself properly. I don't have a problem with dropping down or taking your time to reload if there is cover. My problem is that he did it during training without cover which wouldn't be a problem at all if there wasn't a training later in the video that showed him using actual cover. This lead me to believe that cover wasn't an issue when he ducked down to reload the first time since they actually had cover set up later on in the video.

Just to clarify for people, I don't advocate listening to professional shooters opinions on tactics all the time. A lot of the people I've met seem to think the weaver stance is a waste of time even though it is great for police officers as it goes perfectly with the field interview position (I believe that is what it is called). Obviously, in the real world, you wouldn't get into an ISO stance and stand out in the open using rapid fire and a speed reload unless you had absolutely no other alternative. That was the situation that I assumed they were training him for at the start of the video. Though, if I was ever in that situation, I'd probably drop to the ground and fire from there in an attempt to make my body as small as possible assuming I had time to do so.

As for the sideways grip, I've never fired a pistol that wasn't good for going over the top so I was unaware of that. Taking his eyes off the target to watch the mag when he inserted it was my biggest gripe though.

[Kovacs]

I see Krav being a bit like the Chun. It's too easy to market, too easy to bullshit and too easy to make money from so why bother making the classes hard and put punters off.

It's a shame as I believe that there probably is (or was in some cases) goodness at it's core but it just doesn't translate out of a military context.

[Jim_Jude]

Does it matter? It's like people who don't like you to call them guns. I don't really see the point if everyone knows what you are talking about then it should be fine.

Yeah, not so much. A magazine is a magazine. If everyone just uses whatever vernacular they choose rather than the technically correct terminology, effective communication tends to break down. This isn't a semantic argument. Arguing about it makes you look like a noob.

At least, that has always been my attitude. I know a lot of guys who get bent out of shape over stuff like that. I've heard that a lot in the past especially when I was on the shooting team. :)

Really. What shooting team was that?

Arguing about "Clip vs Magazine" around people who take shooting seriously is like arguing about "Car vs Truck".
"What? They both have engines, wheels, you get inside them & drive around. Arguing about the difference is silly, when I used to race NASCAR I heard that a lot...."

[Himura]

Arguing about "Clip vs Magazine" around people who take shooting seriously is like arguing about "Car vs Truck".

I disagree. I've heard cops, military personnel, thugs, people in movies, etc. all refer to it as a clip while it doesn't make it technically accurate, it does put it into common use slang that everyone understands so it really doesn't make a difference. It isn't the same as arguing truck vs car. It's more like getting you getting into an argument with a BJJ guy over the proper name of a submission technique he is using. You can both argue until your blue in the face, but at the end of that day, it doesn't really matter, and you should have spent that time training. So, to quote my shooting instructor: "Is it relevant to your shooting ability? No, then shut up and shoot."

I did, however, make an effort to refer to it as a mag after that post so more people wouldn't bring it up again or argue with me over something that I honestly don't care about. It seems like after explaining myself the first time and trying to adjust my words in posts after that so it wouldn't be brought up again was quite useless. This is the last time I will address it.

It is not relevant to my original critique of the video, or the subject of this thread. So unless there is someone out there who had no clue what I meant when I said clip, but would have understood it had I said magazine then I just don't care. Essentially, this has been a colossal thread derail over a word usage that I used one or two times and had already corrected in the following posts for all of those anal retentive people out there. The sad thing is that I'm adding to the thread derail be responding to you...You could have just sent me a PM instead of posting about something that has already been covered and has no relevance to Krav on here. Just a thought. So can we all agree to disagree and get back on topic?

[LThornton]

Gezere- have you ever worked with Eyal Yanilov? I did a seminar with him a few years ago, and I thought it was really good.

He had some techniques in Black Belt magazine. My favorite one was a counter to somebody front kicking you. It was to kick them in the groin before they kicked you.

The pictures were great. There were only three:

1. Two men standing opposite each other.
2. The man on the right starts to pick up his leg slightly.
3. The man on the left (Yanilov, presumably) goes POW! Right in the mean bean machine!

Most I've gotten out of BB in ages.

[BKR]

Well, I'm 22 years old. I had my first firearm at the age of 5 where my dad former Army (6 years) taught me how to shoot. I was also on my high school shooting team. I'd probably be competing as an amateur right now if I had the money to do so. That is one expensive hobby, and I'm pretty poor.

As for my specific complaints about the video I noticed that he turns the pistol to the side in order to pull back the slide, he drops to the ground on the reload for no apparent reason, he also pulls the handgun back towards his body on the reload.

You don't need to turn your handgun gangsta style in order to pull the slide back. He could have left it vertical and not took the time to turn it to the side then back vertical before aiming again. Keeping it vertical can save time on the movement and on aiming since you are still pointing at the target.

The same goes for that bringing the gun in close to the body and squatting down bit. He had the ability to speed reload that clip. Had he kept the pistol on target grabbed the clip with his left had and slammed it back in he could have been pumping more rounds into the targets instead of wasting time. He also took his eyes off target, turned the pistol to the side, and watched as he loaded the clip. You don't need to do any of that stuff especially taking your eyes off target. I mean every time he brings the gun in and take his eyes off target to watch the reload.

That is horrible training. There are some other things that I could nitpick on such as the location of the clips on the belt, but I feel that would be taking it too far. I just tried to hit on basic stuff. I mean yeah he seemed to take a bit too long on getting the clip out for the reload, but I don't expect someone training to be as smooth and practiced as people who have done it most of their lives, or people who do it for competition and/or hunting. It seems dangerous to allow someone who could end up using this training to develop bad habits like this though. Those few seconds could end up getting you or someone else killed.

So, you are an "expert" with firearms, and you call a magazine a clip?

Ben

[BKR]

[QUOTE=Jim_Jude;2515070]Yeah, not so much. A magazine is a magazine. If everyone just uses whatever vernacular they choose rather than the technically correct terminology, effective communication tends to break down. This isn't a semantic argument. Arguing about it makes you look like a noob.



LOL, I didn't read your post before I posted my smartass clip vs magazine post!

[Himura]

So, you are an "expert" with firearms, and you call a magazine a clip?

Ben

Did I call myself and expert? I don't remember calling myself an expert. I do remember telling people my experience with firearms, but I never rated myself. I also admitted my own ignorance of certain types of handguns earlier in this thread. What part of PM me if you want to discuss the idiotic clip vs magazine discussion to prevent a thread derail wasn't clear in my other post?

[judoka_uk]

I was on the shooting team at school. As a result I stay out of discussions about rifles and gun-stuff.

[BKR]

Did I call myself and expert? I don't remember calling myself an expert. I do remember telling people my experience with firearms, but I never rated myself. I also admitted my own ignorance of certain types of handguns earlier in this thread. What part of PM me if you want to discuss the idiotic clip vs magazine discussion to prevent a thread derail wasn't clear in my other post?

Sorry, I missed your PM request on the topic of "clip vs magazine", as I didn't bother to read the whole thread. The whole derail on the firearms training has lowered the content of this thread.

The idea that you are giving advice on tactical shooting with no real experience I find amusing to say the least. I mean, I had my first firearm at whatever age, blah, blah, blah and would be in competitive shooting if I wasn't so poor as qualifications is pretty funny. It's like my saying, "well, I got a BB gun when I was 5, a .22 rifle when I was 6, a .243 Winchester caliber bolt action rifle when I was 8, killed my deer the same year, and have been shooting firearms, hunting, and as an adult handloading. So I think I'll post critiques of shooting technique in a thread (in YMAS) about hand to hand Krav Maga self defense system. That would be funny as hell as well.

Or how about this: I've taught Judo for 25 years, done it seriously for 31 years, but none of it is self defense related so I'll have a crack at breaking down the Krav Maga gun or knive defenses I've been watching in videos in the same thread.

Of course, you can post whatever the hell you want, it's YMAS, but don't expect everyone to take you as seriously as you take yourself.

Seriously!

[Rzero]

The only krav maga school I know is the one I've been attending for the past 2 months so I have no idea about the average quality of KM schools or of my own school for that matter. What I do know is that my teacher is Israeli, former IDF and that after 2 months my cardio has improved and Ive learned some useful stuff. I know its useful because Im practising it against fully resisting opponents and it works. And with 2 vs 1 drills and suprise-attacks I'm more alert about my surroundings then I was 2 months ago. If this is indicative of the average KM school then I'd say KM is pretty good.
Eventhough I have no experience in another MA most of the other students do (BJJ, TK, MMA'ers and even some kung fu guys). And they say KM is helping them to adapt their style for non-ring/sport use; multiple-opponents, get in get out mentality, keeping it simple etc.

Just my opinion. Let the ridicule commence :)