Can we all just come to an agreement about Krav Maga?

[NoodleGlue]

Wouldnt a mil. instructor be as good as a civilian then? I mean its his job to teach unarmed fighting so he'd have to train much more than an average soldier.

In theory this is a valid statement. But being a military instructor would mean being on a base and having people come to you for training...maybe you'd get a section or a platoon for an intense two week training course (and how much do you actually learn?). And then they'd be rotated because they need extra training or were being re-deployed. So you'd get another group...and teach them the same thing.

And that would also mean spending your time training mainly with untrained individuals - hardly the kind of thing to sharpen your skills. So you'd have to spend a few weeks or months a year on seminars learning stuff. But you'd still have little chance to practice it against good opposition. Unless of course you're got a whole unarmed combat training section full of fully trained experts that spar with each other to keep their skills up.

Now this seems some what overkill for something that, to my knowledge, hasn't been used in real combat in...well longer than I've been alive. So if we assume that we've got a section of experts...that implies we've got to have recruited them as experts. Which means they'll probably have to be US citizens in your case (I assume this because they'd have to be British for my side).

And that's just the 'general' population. Your SF guys are going to train themselves, so each unit would require it's own cadre. We're looking at a whole stable of fighters now... And then they'd have to be vetted fighters (so background checks, financial checks, lifestyle checks..) to work with SF guys due to the classified nature of their work...

As I said...in theory a military instructor should be better, but logistically it's a nightmare. And the cost of keeping a stable of fighters (who I very much doubt would be allowed to compete in normal competition) would be a massive luxury.

[MrGalt]

As I said...in theory a military instructor should be better, but logistically it's a nightmare. And the cost of keeping a stable of fighters (who I very much doubt would be allowed to compete in normal competition) would be a massive luxury.

Oh man, brilliant! Get into some team MMA or even kickboxing stuff like the WCL, and I know I'd show up with popcorn to watch the SAS vs. Spetsnaz under a good ruleset.

[P Marsh]

The same reasons armies starting issuing crossbows over longbows. Soldiers could learn to fire a crossbow in a casual afternoon.

Funny, I thought longbows replaced crossbows because a crossbow could fire about 1 every 30 seconds if your lucky while a longbow could fire once every 5 second. Plus longbows were cheaper to build.

[The Deliverator]

On topic, I just watched a show tonight called "Fight Quest" streaming through Netflix, in episode 9 the two hosts of the show travel to Israel to learn Krav Maga from the IDF and train directly with two of the head instructors. Anyone who wants to see what the IDF is doing should watch the show.

Now, the show was only like 45 minutes total running time but in that time the Krav instructors were showing very little technique training. What they did repeatedly do was have like 5 soldiers at a time just bum rush attack the show hosts and beat them to the ground. They were either trying to train mental toughness or just show the teevee how tough they are, but as far as actual H2H fighting technique I don't really see what it was doing.

Also, when the Krav people did actually spar they were really just using nothing more than Western Boxing hand strikes and Muay Thai leg strikes.

Anyway, one of you more experience MA guys and/or military vets on this board should really watch the episode through Netflix and provide your feedback if you're interested because I for one would like to read it.

[wetware]

And that's just the 'general' population. Your SF guys are going to train themselves, so each unit would require it's own cadre. We're looking at a whole stable of fighters now... And then they'd have to be vetted fighters (so background checks, financial checks, lifestyle checks..) to work with SF guys due to the classified nature of their work...

As I said...in theory a military instructor should be better, but logistically it's a nightmare. And the cost of keeping a stable of fighters (who I very much doubt would be allowed to compete in normal competition) would be a massive luxury.

Most of your post was pretty well spot on. Trainers don't necessarily have to be vetted as well as you think. They don't need to know what's going on and even Delta is only notionally secret. Further, most SF guys have OPSEC drilled into their heads hard core from before the time they even get to try for the Q course (or whatever their service equivalent is). They may brag about being SF, it's my experience that they have a good idea of what to talk about and what not to talk about. When I was in Germany, we even had a group of them report a foreign national who worked on base and tried to chat them up about what kind of gear they carried and how much it weighed. The best info some trainers (contractors, usually) will get is that some high speed, low drag guys will be coming through on Uncle Sam's dime for a few weeks of intense training and then a bunch of dudes with out of regs haircuts and mustaches will show up, not talk much about what they're doing and why and be gone again.

I don't know how common it is, but I know of one former SF guy who got to compete in kickboxing and MMA tournaments in the 90s. I don't know if that would hold true today.

Funny, I thought longbows replaced crossbows because a crossbow could fire about 1 every 30 seconds if your lucky while a longbow could fire once every 5 second. Plus longbows were cheaper to build.

Crossbows didn't replace the longbow, but it kind of eclipsed it in most of Europe for two reasons: First, if you look at the materials alone, the longbow is indeed cheaper. However, it takes a great deal of skill to make a quality longbow. Crossbows are easier to manufacture and don't require the same degree of finesse. Crossbows are also much easier to use, requiring very little training compared to the longbow.

[kenny_free]

Pfft. As a military veteran and a martial artist, I have argued time and time again - the best martial artists and the best unarmed fighters are almost always civilians. The reasons are simple. Unarmed fighting can only be a small part of military training. Civilians have more time to train and access to better quality instruction.

I (as a martial artist and an active duty service member) agree with this statement, but feel as thought it could be prone to misleading the uninformed. While I agree that the best guys will always be civilians, there are probably more fighters on a per capita in the military than almost any other occupation in the world.

[Eddie Hardon]

Funny, I thought longbows replaced crossbows because a crossbow could fire about 1 every 30 seconds if your lucky while a longbow could fire once every 5 second. Plus longbows were cheaper to build.

The English Bowman/Archer took years to develop. The strength needed to draw a Bow is only developed over years of practise and caused unusual musculature and supporting changes. Their strength was pretty phenomenal.

So, 10+years to be sufficiently capable in Longbow use against an afternoon's instruction in longbow use + shield.

[The Deliverator]

The English Bowman/Archer took years to develop. The strength needed to draw a Bow is only developed over years of practise and caused unusual musculature and supporting changes. Their strength was pretty phenomenal.

So, 10+years to be sufficiently capable in Longbow use against an afternoon's instruction in longbow use + shield.

That is what I have read as well. Here is a good historical fiction book about an English Archer:
http://www.amazon.com/Agincourt-Nove...0725026&sr=8-1

[Eddie Hardon]

Pfft. As a military veteran and a martial artist, I have argued time and time again - the best martial artists and the best unarmed fighters are almost always civilians. The reasons are simple. Unarmed fighting can only be a small part of military training. Civilians have more time to train and access to better quality instruction.

It's just a Skill-set amongst many, signals, Skill-at-Arms, etc etc.

When we trained our Trad JJ in the evenings in an Army Barracks, we would occasionally get attempts to provoke a response. You know, walking straight across the mat on their way to the Weights Room. We didn't respond - we're too old and it was too obvious - but the Army PSI was watching from the balcony and issued a rebuke. He got off the mat double quick. Another, who did the same, eye-balled me as I was at the side of the mat preparing various Kobudo sets. He constantly checked thru the window as I worked thru the Nuns, Tonfa, Katana, Bo etc etc. When he left the Weights room, he took the long way round and never went near the mat.

The PSI asked my instructor for some Techniques for a couple of soldiers off to Basra for Vehicle Check Point duty. We worked some techniques and he decided what he wanted and they drilled them using me as Test Crash Dummy. The two were both members of the Battalion Rugby Team - Prop Forwards I should think going by their size. Anyway, they were receptive and enjoyed it. One asked for some simple things and I showed him how to move someone, like him at 15stone quite easily. This surprised them and they were thankful.

The mil don't often don't like to be taught to fight by civvies. Then again, it's part of the militarisation of character. We do get mil pers now training Trad JJ but they are not infantry so have a slightly different outlook. Then again, I don't know much about Guns...

[NoodleGlue]

Here's an example of what I've mentioned previously:
http://www.eucom.mil/english/fullstory.asp?art={9E2C58C4-0537-4B80-9FB0-3F5B273FC854}

This is basically detailing how a bunch of Royal Marines wanted to learn some 'deadly' and pointless skills.

Notice the phrase:

Royal Marines learn basic unarmed fighting techniques during initial training, and the 45 Commando Battalion places a heavy emphasis on personal physical fitness, but the unit does not currently participate in a formalized unarmed fighting training program.

The latter part is correct, but the first isn't. You just box to demonstrate controlled aggression.

Now...for comic effect, let's lot at what some of those 'moves' probably look like:
http://www.apertureninja.com/Action/...00_LZ5xj/Large

For me, training unarmed combat, like knife fighting and using a bow and arrow (ala Rambo), isn't useful in modern warfare. You really want to go hand to hand with an insurgent with an IED up his arse? It is however, great fun and a wonderful sport.

[Devil]

Fighting with your fists in an actual combat situation should be pretty fucking low on anyone's to-do list.

Take the recent example where SeALs boarded a vessel and engaged pirates. One of the guys killed a pirate with a knife. And you have to assume some shit went seriously wrong for that to happen. He was likely carrying a primary weapon and a sidearm. Maybe he had a malfunction, maybe he found himself in quarters that were too tight, whatever.

Even in that case, he had a weapon to use. What would happen if he dropped his knife? He'd probably pull out another knife :)

[excludedmiddle]

Not to derail the very interesting derails here, but I was wondering if we could also come to an agreement about JKD. Like Krav Maga, it seems to be in a similarly grayish area between the larptastic bullshido/sports MA extremes.

And on a related note, is Dan Inosanto really any good? From what I can tell he seems to be half bullshido, half realistic (BJJ black belt and all).

[It is Fake]

How do you come to half Bullshido?

[excludedmiddle]

How do you come to half Bullshido?

I guess the nunchuku and knife/gun disarm stuff as well as all the other compliant demo stuff I've seen him do. Perhaps I should have said something more along the lines of "less aliveness" than "bullshido". Although no one will convince me that any knife/gun disarms aren't bullshido (unless they have a vid of it working in a real situation of course).

[Permalost]

Dan Inosanto has been filmed for decades doing martial arts, so I'm sure there's probably video of him doing something crappy. If I was around that long, I doubt I'd always be right. Hell, you can find video of Gene Lebell endorsing systema. Coming from the JKD perspective, I'm sure Dan's come a long way in his thinking since he was a lowly Parker kempo student who met Bruce Lee. I'll bet his martial arts understanding is different in each decade he can be seen teaching and explaining.

For a man in his 70s, he's damn impressive, and I kinda wonder if he would be able to move as well if his training over the decades was all hard sparring and conditioning.

Although no one will convince me that any knife/gun disarms aren't bullshido

Well there you go.