A theory and an experiment

[tao.jonez]

The primary response in training I get when applying a wrist lock is disengagement. In other words my partner snatches his hand back before I clamp down the lock.

I think this is most likely because I apply this type of lock extra-slowly so as not to cause damage to my training partner's wrists. The result is that I use wrist locks as an opening to something else like a sweep or reversal.

I am curious about using them in competition. I imagine many people will try to call you out for "small joint manipulation". They are legal but I bet it will happen.

Very interested in your results.

[Lindz]

Wrist locks are always legal at white belt. Straight ankle is rather dubious as the rules aren't in english. I don't intend on importing just the SJM by the way, but the older armlocks as well.

Which armlocks would those be?

[Rivington]

One of the issues that puzzles me is the death of the small circle arts. You'd be hard pressed to find honest to god taiji, hapkido, small circle jujitsu, etc. in open competion. You come across it every now and then, but its certainly fallen out of favor.

Well in taiji one doesn't do small joint chin-na for anything more than a second or two to make the opponent twist in the direction you want him to in order to feed him a knee or elbow, or to trip, etc.

[JordanT]

For example Lind, the standing straight armbar pin against a downed opponent.

Thats still a relevant skill Rivington.

[danno]

i find that wristlocks are easier to pull off when you're controlling them on the ground. position before submission still applies.

i've usually wristlocked people while i had them in an armbar which wasn't working, or a triangle, and i got wristlocked once when i had someone's back, and they had one arm in a figure-4 so that it couldn't be moved while they applied pressure to the wrist.

also:

[Muerteds]

It's worth noting that Small Circle Jujitsu (capitalized to emphasize its specificity to a style) is not an "older" art at all. It grew out of danzan ryu jujitsu, which is a bit younger than judo.

As to why you don't see the odd locks in competition, my guess would be that not a lot of folks who do those competitions train them. I have used fun wristy-twisty stuff in randori and on the street. They work well enough for what they are. I'm just not allowed to do them in judo classes or shiai.

I will rant for a minute and say that if you view the standing joint-lock as the end of the process, then you're doing it wrong. The standing joint lock can be the end of the move if you've locked it down well at the right time. But I've learned that more important than getting the standing joint lock is figuring out what to do next. What if it doesn't work, or the opponent slips out? The exact same thought process that goes on when you try something on the ground or try a throw should be in play when you attempt a standing joint lock. Use that movement to try another lock, or failing that, get a throw from it. Just as you wouldn't go for an armbar on the ground without having a backup plan, you don't go for a standing armbar without a backup plan (do I drive them to the ground?, swtich hands and go for a wrist lock?, turn it into a throw?, etc.)

That said, I hope you have fun trying it all out, OP.

[BKR]

I'll just throw this in for grins. Standing armlocks (to the elbow) are legal in Judo competition. They are very rarely attempted, even more rarely succesful. When they do work, they are pretty brutal, in fact, certain rule changes were put in place due to the the sheer brutality of the standing side/armpit lock, Waki Gatame wherein tori would fall straight to the mat onto uke arm. Ouch! I've seen two examples from high level competition of a standing straight armlock (Ude Gatame) applied that worked.

Ben

[Diesel_tke]

We trained a lot of wrist lock veriations in the academy. First was for cuffing techniques. You have to have control of the wrist in order to apply cuffs, which is the end result. You can't be trying to transition into arm bars or chokes...they are not part of gaining control (in the eyes of the court). I've used bent wrist locks in use of force situations and they worked well.

The other thing wrist lock veriations are used for is in knife situations. If someone is coming at you with a knife, it pays to be able to control the wrist and be able to manipulate it to get the knife released or at least to keep the knife away from you. But we use the takedowns to allow you to first control the knife, then take the person to the ground, then use a wrist lock to get the knife out of the hand, then cuffing.

So to the op- I agree that it is a usefull skill, and I think the reason you don't see it much is just because there are higher percentage techniques that can be used in the sport you are participating in. So people rightly focus on the high percentage to win tournaments. That being said, I would love to see someone pulling them off in competition, so good luck!!

[danno]

^agree.

diesel, have you ever trained (sparred/rolled) with a resisting partner where the objective was to cuff the other person? if you had people training competitively like that, i'm sure a lot of techniques would spring out of nowhere which you don't normally see in grappling competition.

[Diesel_tke]

Yeah, we do this frequently. It adds a whole different element to rolling. We do it, because we have been trained under the moto: "you fight the way you train, so train the way you want to fight."

It comes from a study where they used to have you put all of your shell casings in your pocket when you were firing at the range. That way you wouldn't have to pick up the brass when you completed your course of fire. Then they had a couple cops get into a shoot out and they found that they were ejecting their brass into their pockets during the shoot out. Which as you can imagine is not a good idea!!

So now, everything we do is with the plan to drill something the way you want to perform it under pressure. We also make a habbit of wearing full gear regularly. Try doing a strait ankle lock on someone who is wearing combat boots! Or getting to a full guard against someone who has a duty belt on.

[danno]

when i did security we never used cuffs. there was no need to restrain them in any specific way, so what i was doing in BJJ/MMA was pretty much identical.

one time though, one of my boots got stuck under someone in a weird way and i had to slip it off so i could move to a better position. luckily they weren't very tight at the time.

i might play around with getting people on their belly and getting the hands to their back at training.

[Kin Kong]

Let me simplify. Someone's getting wrist locked.

That someone was me. Multiple times. ;[

[JordanT]

You're just out of my weight class is all. That guard pass is nasty.