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    #31
    Originally posted by Gezere View Post
    I've watched many embu in Japan using shinken (real swords) I've also seen Kyokushin karate demos where real knives and swords were used.

    Daily active training with a live blade, bad idea.
    Rehearsed demo with experience people, no problem.
    I have to disagree with the people on this thread. I've seen/heard too many horror stories of compliant techniques being demostrated with live weapons that end up or almost end up in serious injury.

    Both of these stories were related to my Ninjutsu days (Insert Joke Here). The first story involved a Kobo (small stick? please correct me if I'm wrong this is over 15 years ago for me) I had a small metal kobo with two dull ends and a friend of mine had a metal kobo with a sharp pointed end. He was using it during training and the instructor wanted to show a variation of a technique. I'm assuming he thought he grabbed mine but he showed a compliant technique where he ended up behind my friend with the stick pointing right at his eye being held 1 cm away. He was about to pretend to finish the technique before I yelled out his name to stop. My friend just about pissed his pants, and the instructed didn't know that his kobo had a pointed end.

    My next story happened at a dojo in Calgary that I trained at and basically during a black belt test the adult being tested had to demonstrate a very slow and complaint technique with the knife. Again he was behind the Uke with the knife behind the uke's neck and pulled back on his chin to show that he would stab him through the back of the neck. The Uke not feeling the knife thought he was being taken down and fell backwards on the knife. Luckily the knife only impaled him on his rear deltoid. Blood everywhere, end of test etc etc.

    Moral of these stories... never underestimate the stupidity of people.

    I know the Sifu Jason rehearsed said technique hundreds of times. He couldn't find a training knife, Ninjutsuka are stupider than most MA practitioners etc etc. But I feel the overall question here is "Should live blades be used at all in demo involving uke's?"

    My solution to this problem was simple. I had a $250 Benchmade knife after training JKD for 3 years, I found a similar knock off knife in a martial arts magazine for $19. I bought 2 of them and had the blades and tip grounded out of them at a knife store in a mall. Viola 2 training knife which are very very realistic and very safe. An audience member would not be able to tell the difference.

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      #32
      Actually, grinding said knives don't make them that much safer; they definitely remove the cutting edge, but not problems such as you mentioned with impaling on a deltoid. Also, I would like to point out that in escrima especially people train with live weapons all the time; an escrima stick is a live weapon!

      (yes, escrima was not designed solely to be used with rattan; harder woods, edged weapons ala machetes, etc, but the point remains).
      Last edited by SifuJason; 2/14/2011 10:03pm, . Reason: Clarification

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        #33
        Your point almost made sense until you trued to equate a knife to an eskrima stick. A stick requires a certain amount of force to cause severe injury, a knife is quite different. Cutting weapons can't be thrown in the same ballpark as impact weapons.

        For knives I assume a live (knife) is a sharpened weapon. There is a distinct difference between a live sharp knife and a blunted trainer. What would the difference be between a live stick compared to one that isn't live(stick)? Yes, sticks differ in weight and quality but they pretty much always work the same and if used properly a relatively light stick can cause quite a bit of damage (if you try hard enough).

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          #34
          I don't disagree that knives are more dangerous than sticks, just like guns are more dangerous than knives. My point is that people do train with live weapons, and it can be done responsibly. The more dangerous the weapon, the more responsible and careful one must be, and in the case of something like a gun, there simply isn't a way to be safe. You have to use specialized safety (non-lethal) ammo and proper protection, or something like an airsoft gun. Sticks, as a blunt weapon, are at the other other of the spectrum, but they are still "live weapons" and some people are trying to make the point that one should "never train with a a live weapon."

          As for sharpened knife vs blunted trainer, I completely agree there is a big difference; ground out sharpened knives don't equal blunted trainers, though.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by superninjagod View Post
            I have to disagree with the people on this thread. I've seen/heard too many horror stories of compliant techniques being demostrated with live weapons that end up or almost end up in serious injury.

            Both of these stories were related to my Ninjutsu days (Insert Joke Here). The first story involved a Kobo (small stick? please correct me if I'm wrong this is over 15 years ago for me) I had a small metal kobo with two dull ends and a friend of mine had a metal kobo with a sharp pointed end. He was using it during training and the instructor wanted to show a variation of a technique. I'm assuming he thought he grabbed mine but he showed a compliant technique where he ended up behind my friend with the stick pointing right at his eye being held 1 cm away. He was about to pretend to finish the technique before I yelled out his name to stop. My friend just about pissed his pants, and the instructed didn't know that his kobo had a pointed end.
            *sits in directors chair*
            Your friend didn't check his props? Now if you have been rehearsing with a live one do you think more care would have been used knowing the weapon presented a real danger?
            I think you mean KOPPO not KOBO. Short stick that can have either blunt or pointy ends. Used in many schools of Jujutsu.

            My next story happened at a dojo in Calgary that I trained at and basically during a black belt test the adult being tested had to demonstrate a very slow and complaint technique with the knife. Again he was behind the Uke with the knife behind the uke's neck and pulled back on his chin to show that he would stab him through the back of the neck. The Uke not feeling the knife thought he was being taken down and fell backwards on the knife. Luckily the knife only impaled him on his rear deltoid. Blood everywhere, end of test etc etc.
            That's why you don't skip rehearsals and KNOW YOUR DAMN LINES!!!! *throws down script and storms off*

            Moral of these stories... never underestimate the stupidity of people.
            That goes without saying. However you should underestimate the skill of people to do it properly.

            I know the Sifu Jason rehearsed said technique hundreds of times. He couldn't find a training knife, Ninjutsuka are stupider than most MA practitioners etc etc. But I feel the overall question here is "Should live blades be used at all in demo involving uke's?"
            Not everyone is able to do live blade work. The problem is that many think they can. I've know people who trained mainly with bokuto and feel they can wield a real sword the same way. These people I would never trust to do a shinken demo. I also seen many FMA guys who think they are good enough to demo with lives blades but I wouldn't trust them either.

            My solution to this problem was simple. I had a $250 Benchmade knife after training JKD for 3 years, I found a similar knock off knife in a martial arts magazine for $19. I bought 2 of them and had the blades and tip grounded out of them at a knife store in a mall. Viola 2 training knife which are very very realistic and very safe. An audience member would not be able to tell the difference.
            They are not safe they are still dangerous even ground down.
            ______
            Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

            RIP SOLDIER

            Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
            -Gene, GODHAND

            You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
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            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Gezere View Post

              They are not safe they are still dangerous even ground down.
              I guess he didn't read the link:
              Another: Hock and I were in Virginia giving a seminar and wanted to demonstrate with a real knife doing passing drills - I pulled out my fake Spyderco Endura with a dull blade, but it looked real..... [yada, yada, yada] We started moving faster, and faster (Hock made a mistake ) and I stabbed the dull blade into is forearm (I felt it pull through the muscle tendon and hit the bone). He bled on both of us as we finished, we pulled out the first aid kit and tied it up. A real knife, and I would have ripped him from the beginning of his forearm to his elbow. This incident may have officially end it for both Hock and I using live blade in a training situation. Both of us are very versed with knives, comfortable with working with each other....but accidents happen....

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by WalksWithBruce View Post
                This is a re-post of what I posted on the MAP thread:

                Your school, or any other, should not be run like a circus or a Shaolin Temple. Safety first.

                I've been to your school. There are many young children there. I wouldn't dream of training in such a way that would give them the message that it's ok, as long as you have training, to put an actual blade near someone's throat.

                I have seen Master level instructors drop weapons. I have seen all sorts of things happen by accident. You train without lives blades to minimize the injury if anything were to happen.

                Your training and experience are there for you to fall back on. They are not there for you to say "oh, I'm highly trained...nothing will happen."
                There is ample discussion with regards to the training with live blades and a fairly good differentiation between "training with live blades" and "training to create a demonstration using a live blade" and the advantages and perils with both.

                I would like to take this to a simpler step:
                I know you happened to visit SifuJason's school for a TD and sparred with some of his students.

                What is you opinion of SifuJason as an instructor based on your interactions with him and his students?

                Do you think or did you see any evidence or have any of his students support the opinion that he trains this manner of live weapon training on a regular basis or with every student, regardless of age or skill-level, as opposed to the stated purpose of "with this student for this demo"?

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by SifuJason View Post
                  Actually, grinding said knives don't make them that much safer; they definitely remove the cutting edge, but not problems such as you mentioned with impaling on a deltoid. Also, I would like to point out that in escrima especially people train with live weapons all the time; an escrima stick is a live weapon!

                  (yes, escrima was not designed solely to be used with rattan; harder woods, edged weapons ala machetes, etc, but the point remains).
                  I would have to disagree with you on that one. Before I sent out my last post I found one of my trainer blades and repeated stabbed myself in the thigh with increased pressure every time. I did not leave so much as a bruise. That being said the knife was a thicker knife to begin with, I have seen some of the spiderco knife be very narrow.

                  Comparing a stick with a knife is rather absurb. Fake wooden weapons have been used for years with great safety, and although training with wooden weapons can lead to injury, it would not be any greater than any other form of unarmed training.

                  As for sparring with wooden weapons (Shinai's excluded) it can be dangerous. I personally would rather pad the stick and leave the body unprotected than pad the body and leave the stick unprotected.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    I've just seen the clip.

                    How can someone can say "OMG safety standards went through the window!!!" after seeing what and how is demonstrated? I can't believe the OP was being serious.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by SifuJason View Post
                      Actually, grinding said knives don't make them that much.
                      I would say it doesn't make them safe, but it definitely makes them a lot safer. I've sparred with aluminum trainers which are essentially ground down knives without any injury. Granted there was potential for injury, but with a live blade it would have been a guarantee.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by DCS View Post
                        I've just seen the clip.

                        How can someone can say "OMG safety standards went through the window!!!" after seeing what and how is demonstrated? I can't believe the OP was being serious.
                        Yes, and it makes me wonder how many people watched the actual video.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          I watched it twice and not cuz SifuJason.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            ^Pushups

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by superninjagod View Post
                              I would have to disagree with you on that one. Before I sent out my last post I found one of my trainer blades and repeated stabbed myself in the thigh with increased pressure every time. I did not leave so much as a bruise. That being said the knife was a thicker knife to begin with, I have seen some of the spiderco knife be very narrow.
                              I don't know about you, but the knifework I do isn't centered on tricep-driven leg stabs.

                              As for sparring with wooden weapons (Shinai's excluded) it can be dangerous. I personally would rather pad the stick and leave the body unprotected than pad the body and leave the stick unprotected.
                              Wood, as opposed to rattan, is dangerous to spar with partly because it can break into very pointy shapes. I was sparring with a short bokken against rattan sticks, and at some point during an exchange, about six inches of wood came off like a big splinter, leaving my weapon ultra-pointy. If you don't notice it right away or it happens in a fray, you might accidentally stab your partner with a pointy piece of wood.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by donoraen View Post
                                I would say it doesn't make them safe, but it definitely makes them a lot safer. I've sparred with aluminum trainers which are essentially ground down knives without any injury. Granted there was potential for injury, but with a live blade it would have been a guarantee.
                                Aluminum trainers are not ground down knives; the "edged" surface is much wider and blunter, which makes them safer, and the point is much more rounded (typically speaking, of course.

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