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    #16
    We had trained it with live knifes before; start with training knives, work up to live knives, for the various reasons you outlined above, Donoraen.

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      #17
      Originally posted by SifuJason View Post

      2) The people doing this demo were experienced. Tiffany had ~13 years of training at the time, I had ~19 years. We had trained this specific drill numerous times, both compliantly and with resistance with training knives, and compliantly with a live knife, so we could do a demo like this.
      I guess he missed this part of your post.

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        #18
        I was really just trying to make the point the op was failing to make. Hence the devil's advocate part.

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          #19
          Originally posted by donoraen View Post
          I was really just trying to make the point the op was failing to make. Hence the devil's advocate part.
          Actually, you are raising a point not playing Devil's Advocate. Why? Most people here agree live blade training is silly, except in very specific training scenarios, hence many people recommend markers, pens, rubber knives etc.

          Training to make a demo is not the same as ACTUAL TRAINING. That is my problem with the OP and many of the people in the MAP thread. Show me where he said he runs live knife training, for children and regular students during regular classes. That's why I find the whole thing funny. Yes, there was a live blade used in the video. His first post, in both threads is an admission, and the point he does these things with training blades except in this case.

          When asked yes, he has done some live blade COMPLIANT training with some of his students. Again, this is completely different than what your DA and the OP are trying to state. Let's be real, this is an in school demonstration video without a large audience. There is a cameraman, someone you trained with for 13 years and yourself in an empty room. If it was on stage or in front of an audience I'd be more leery.

          http://hockscombatforum.com/index.ph...b&topic=2359.0

          Very good thread on why not to train WITH PARTNERS using live blades and being careful with training blades.

          Again, as it keeps being missed he rehearsed this for a "demo" and the boo birds assumed he trained this way in class.
          Last edited by It is Fake; 2/13/2011 9:02pm, .

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            #20
            Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
            Actually, you are raising a point not playing Devil's Advocate. Why? Most people here agree live blade training is silly, except in very specific training scenarios, hence many people recommend markers, pens, rubber knives etc.
            I didn't mention anything about it being silly or not silly to train with live blades, i only stated that it would be an important precursor to performing with them which is actually pretty far from what I precieve the op's point to be so I guess I did a pretty bad job as a devil's advocate...
            Let's be real, this is an in school demonstration video without a large audience. There is a cameraman, someone you trained with for 13 years and yourself in an empty room. If it was on stage or in front of an audience I'd be more leery.
            Yeah, I was more thinking about live performances, not necessarily this video, but a video camera being on can make people nervous.

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              #21
              The live blade in a demo in which it's hardly going to move is not a big deal . . . I'd be much more concerned with the logic of teaching that you're going to teach a woman to do the "simple" response of grabbing a rapist's knife hand with one open hand (with the "open" part of the grip between the knife hand and your face) and then knock him out with punches from guard.
              I cannot imagine how anyone (particularly anyone smaller or weaker than me) could reasonably expect to control his knife hand that way--even if her grip held, the attacker is making a much stronger movement from a much stronger position aided by gravity; you might hold onto his hand, but you're not going to keep the fist or the knife from hitting you. That's assuming your grip doesn't simply break when he applies his weight and the superior strength of a punching motion to the weakest direction of your grip.
              It looks like a scary strategy to me. Could be wrong, haven't tried it exactly that way, but it would have to be much more than the sum of its parts to make sense. You say you trained that drill in a non-compliant way, and the person on bottom was able to prevent the attacker from delivering serious "cuts" with the training blade using that grip? And to deliver knockout punches from the bottom of guard?

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                #22
                Knockout punches not so much; that was edited in the video the newspaper made, and I tried to avoid talking about "stun points" since it sounds "hokier" to most people. As anyone knows, dealing a lot of damage from the guard is tough, but you can hurt someone enough to make your next move easier. That being said, most people aren't MMA fighters, and a few good shots to someone's chin from the bottom can do a lot of damage, especially if they weren't expected and the opponent is not well-trained. I know I have caught some good, accidental elbows rolling, and I have seen people get stunned half out from them during training as well. But basically, me talking about KOs from the bottom is trying to keep things stupid simple for the target audience; we go in more detail about what can and can't happen in an actual seminar, which this was not.

                As for controlling a knife, that is the key of the thumb-bed control, combined with the back arching. It also assumes the assailant is trying to sexually assault the victim at the time; combining the sex act, threatening with a knife, and holding your weight up makes the counter more successful. How do I know this; my wife is one of my students, and we, ahem, practiced these techniques before we taught them. That being said, the technique isn't high percentage, and we preface it when we teach it by saying there is a lot of risk here, but some people want to fight back, instead of hoping the assault will simply stop at some point (or that the assailant won't kill them afterwards), and this is the best technique we have found, and it works decently well (not 100%, but not 10% either).

                But, basically in regards to the whole technique and managing the knife, the technique combines several movements (hip arching, neck turning, thumb-bed control), along with some good old fashioned physics I am in the rare position to be able to test in detail (have a very self-defense enthused wife who trains with me, and is game to test this stuff out in more detail than is likely truly sane--with training equipment mind you. Gravity in this case is the enemy of the assaulter, not his friend, due to the physics of threatening while sexually assaulting. As someone pointed out on MAP, yes you can throttle someone while raping them; however, that means both arms are holding the victim down; if you do that while holding a knife, the victim is either dead, or you aren't holding the knife, you are holding them.

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                  #23
                  Oh, I forgot to mention, but we also declare in the seminar that this counter is by no means simple. It is, however, the only one we could get to work a good percentage of the time, and is the only position you can even defend from. We also mention that being assaulted in this position isn't even the most likely (I believe from behind is, based on the bit of research I have been able to do, which admittedly, isn't as extensive as I would wish).

                  But in regards to technique, try some thumb-bed control drills with a training knife; it breaks the ability of the person to use the weapon and break out of the grip quite well. Grabbing someone's wrist, however, is completely pointless, for the reasons you mentioned above.

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                    #24
                    Just my two cents, but I don't have a problem with anything in the video. Yes it was a live blade, but the demo was done in a way to minimize the danger.

                    I have no opinion on the defense shown, I haven't tried it, don't know if it would work, but then again, how many options to you realistically have when a guy is on top of you with a knife to your throat?

                    I do have a problem with the title of the thread however. I click on the thread thinking the "defender" would be the one with a knife. It borught back bad memories of a seminar I once attended on "Knife Self Defense" that consisted of things like an unarmed attaker grabbing our shirt and us pulling our knife and stabbing him repeatedly in the face and neck. I came into this thread preparing to post how carrying a knife for self defense purposes was stupid. Then I found out it was just the OP.

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by Punisher View Post

                      I have no opinion on the defense shown, I haven't tried it, don't know if it would work, but then again, how many options to you realistically have when a guy is on top of you with a knife to your throat?
                      In a way, this comment sums my view up; you are in a terrible situation. Of all the terrible situations of knife + rape, this was the only situation where I could even devise a counter that could work.

                      Also, I encounter people (with training equipment), to test the technique out; bearing in mind that the "victim" in each drill should make sure to try and not hold up the weight of the attacker, and to make sure they have proper thumb-bed control when they grab the weapon hand (wrist grabbing = autofail). It's worked as well as can be hoped for us thus far, but I am always open to further input. I test everything with resistance, and furthermore change my curriculum as I get feedback from others as to what works and doesn't, assuming said feedback is based on actual live testing, and not internet warrior pontification.

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                        #26
                        Not that I have anything against people questioning and comparing technique but when did MAP go from a "me so humble" circle jerk to to a diet bullshido (or bullshido lite if you prefer) looking forum?

                        It's seriously reminds me of weird RBSD/YMAS hybrid, except without the whole, you know, reason and logic thing. Like a bunch of crazy menstruating baboons.

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                          #27
                          I've watched many embu in Japan using shinken (real swords) I've also seen Kyokushin karate demos where real knives and swords were used.

                          Daily active training with a live blade, bad idea.
                          Rehearsed demo with experience people, no problem.
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                            #28
                            Originally posted by Ignorami View Post
                            Just to clarify...

                            Does WalksWithBruce walk with Bruce Lee, or Bruce Campbell?

                            I need to know before I pick a side.
                            Bruce Villanch.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Squerlli View Post
                              Not that I have anything against people questioning and comparing technique but when did MAP go from a "me so humble" circle jerk to to a diet bullshido (or bullshido lite if you prefer) looking forum?

                              It's seriously reminds me of weird RBSD/YMAS hybrid, except without the whole, you know, reason and logic thing. Like a bunch of crazy menstruating baboons.
                              You should go check out how the thread has devolved there...

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                                #30
                                Originally posted by Ignorami View Post
                                Just to clarify...

                                Does WalksWithBruce walk with Bruce Lee, or Bruce Campbell?

                                I need to know before I pick a side.
                                Bruce Banner?

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