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    Another Kenpo Discussion.

    I am in the process of searching for a MA system/style. Before I get to my questions, I'd like to comment on this AK isn't for self defense.

    As I said, I have absolutely no experience with MA but have been researching AK and traditional Kenpo a lot as well as looking into others and in the process, I wonder if any of these MA guys have ever been in a bar or street fight. I've been in so many that I can't even count, mostly when I was a kid (bad neighborhood) and in the army (surrounded by jerks) but a few in bars as well as I never back down from anybody and that really big drunk guy is looking for guys like me who he is sure he can beat and is willing to fight.

    I read a lot that AK doesn't work and see videos of sport fights or sparring where no technique is used...at least in the way it's taught in AK. Well, you are missing a big point of "self defense". Self defense is not about lining up across from somebody and say "go", regardless if there are any rules or not or if you don't want to use this technique because it can damage or any of that stuff. Self defense is about knowing what to do when somebody approaches and attacks. A good self defense student knows not to give away his readyness and his abilities, so the attacker usually doesn't use any technique and isn't expecting any in return either. That's why it can work. AKA....just like how all bar fights start where somebody got drunk and got pissed and got all in the face of another guy and then decided to throw a punch. That's when the techniques can work if you trained on them hard enough so that it's muscle memory. I know because what I was taught in the army worked very well in fights I had after the army and while I was in the army (so many of those). Now, if the self defense didn't work or it didn't end the fight, or allow the victim to escape, then see below...

    Now, you line up two guys in a ring and say "go", well, all that self defense stuff goes out the window. Now is the time for fighting which usually ends up in the winner being the one with the most energy and sometimes weight and strength. That's why one not only needs to learn techniques and practice them, but also hit the gym and do some serious weight lifting. In fact, I'd say a major strength advantage is much more valuable in ground fighting then technique...only ground fights I have lost are to those stronger than I and I have no techniques.

    From what I have seen and read and heard, there is only one system I would say is strictly self defense and may have a leg up on other systems, not because of it's technique as it seems like a watered down version of AK, but because of how it's taught and the mentality of it. It is Krav Maga. They teach movement, speed, and intensity and that's what wins fights. They have a bit of technique and it seems to come from AK, but it is mostly attitude and the classes are a big time workout.

    So far in my research, I am planning on taking up AK at first, then maybe Judo and Kali later. My goal is self defense, but I know how to bring intensity and will train at home with that in mind. I guess when I feel I'm ready, I will search out full contact sparring to enhance the skills I've learned, but I sure don't expect to line up against a MA guy and do a 10 strike technique on him, but as long as I know the pressure points and how to attack them, I'm sure I can find opportunities to go after them.

    Sad thing is, I haven't found what I've been looking for. Back when I was in the army, I started looking for a MA school. I went around to all the schools off base and asked one simple question "what makes your school different from the others". Only one stood out and they said a few things like 1) expect to go home bruised and sore as we train for the real world. 2) we teach to go after the limbs as a man with a broken arm can't fight and you can eliminate opponents much quicker than going after the head and body. 3) we teach very close in fighting with very short punches (he demoed the one inch punch of BL). I do know the name of the style started with an A and it was one word and very short, but that's all I know and I can't find that school anymore nor the style :( If any thinks he knows it, I would love to hear it.

    I have two questions:

    1) what is the difference between a system and a style. Everybody says AK is a system, not a style but it all seems like a style to me. If it's a system and not a style, which ones are styles?

    2) If forms and katas is like a dance and not useful in a fight, why are they bothered with?

    3) now you've heard my uneducated thoughts on what I believe self defense is and how AK can be a self defense MA and also what I believe is the best self defense "style" or "system", what do you believe is the best for self defense? (Note: I do not consider any ground system a self defense system as usually one who wants to take you down is bigger and stronger and his friend can walk up and kick you in the head while you are down and you are out and possible dead).

    Sorry for such a long post. I've had a lot to say after reading these blogs for a couple of weeks now while doing my research.

    BTW: I'm in search of the best system to use against multiple attackers in the street, not one on one stuff so ground stuff is definitely out.

    #2
    I left out, the reason I didn't train in that school I found is because shortly later I was deployed while I was trying to save money for it (they don't pay you much in the army).

    I also want to clarify something...I have gotten along very well without the need for MA and I guess I have mellowed out a bit because I have only been in two fights in 15 years. I guess I have learned to stay away from those who are jerks or are looking for a fight and I don't go out much these days, but my environment is going to change drastically. I will be sailing/traveling the world by myself for 5 years which opens the doors for attacks, especially from groups and pirates too. Sadly, I can't take weapons with me so all I will have is my hands and maybe a Kali sticks if I can disguise them as a cane.

    A 45+ white man alone in a strange land sticks out like a sore thumb and smells of money and since I will not know the places I visit, it would be easy for me to end up in the wrong places, especially with my "I can take on anything" attitude.

    So that's the reason for my sudden desire to find the rights system for me. I have 2.5 years to learn and 3-4 nights a week to devote to it. I sure hope it's possible to get proficient with AK enough to handle a few smaller un-trained guys.
    Last edited by JackJack; 12/30/2010 9:59pm, .

    Comment


      #3
      I would suggest you copy both of your posts from this and paste them into a new thread in "Your Martial Art Sucks".

      Comment


        #4
        A man with a broken arm can't fight? Tell it to Rich Franklin!
        http://www.iviewtube.com/v/156983/ri...-liddell-fight
        "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

        Comment


          #5
          And to JJ, what Turry said, in both posts above.

          Some schools of any style are good. But I'd say, usually Kaju > AK, and BJJ > Kaju etc etc
          "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by JackJack View Post
            I am in the process of searching for a MA system/style. Before I get to my questions, I'd like to comment on this AK isn't for self defense.

            As I said, I have absolutely no experience with MA but have been researching AK and traditional Kenpo a lot as well as looking into others and in the process, I wonder if any of these MA guys have ever been in a bar or street fight. I've been in so many that I can't even count, mostly when I was a kid (bad neighborhood) and in the army (surrounded by jerks) but a few in bars as well as I never back down from anybody and that really big drunk guy is looking for guys like me who he is sure he can beat and is willing to fight.

            I read a lot that AK doesn't work and see videos of sport fights or sparring where no technique is used...at least in the way it's taught in AK. Well, you are missing a big point of "self defense". Self defense is not about lining up across from somebody and say "go", regardless if there are any rules or not or if you don't want to use this technique because it can damage or any of that stuff. Self defense is about knowing what to do when somebody approaches and attacks. A good self defense student knows not to give away his readyness and his abilities, so the attacker usually doesn't use any technique and isn't expecting any in return either. That's why it can work. AKA....just like how all bar fights start where somebody got drunk and got pissed and got all in the face of another guy and then decided to throw a punch. That's when the techniques can work if you trained on them hard enough so that it's muscle memory. I know because what I was taught in the army worked very well in fights I had after the army and while I was in the army (so many of those). Now, if the self defense didn't work or it didn't end the fight, or allow the victim to escape, then see below...

            Now, you line up two guys in a ring and say "go", well, all that self defense stuff goes out the window. Now is the time for fighting which usually ends up in the winner being the one with the most energy and sometimes weight and strength. That's why one not only needs to learn techniques and practice them, but also hit the gym and do some serious weight lifting. In fact, I'd say a major strength advantage is much more valuable in ground fighting then technique...only ground fights I have lost are to those stronger than I and I have no techniques.

            From what I have seen and read and heard, there is only one system I would say is strictly self defense and may have a leg up on other systems, not because of it's technique as it seems like a watered down version of AK, but because of how it's taught and the mentality of it. It is Krav Maga. They teach movement, speed, and intensity and that's what wins fights. They have a bit of technique and it seems to come from AK, but it is mostly attitude and the classes are a big time workout.

            So far in my research, I am planning on taking up AK at first, then maybe Judo and Kali later. My goal is self defense, but I know how to bring intensity and will train at home with that in mind. I guess when I feel I'm ready, I will search out full contact sparring to enhance the skills I've learned, but I sure don't expect to line up against a MA guy and do a 10 strike technique on him, but as long as I know the pressure points and how to attack them, I'm sure I can find opportunities to go after them.

            Sad thing is, I haven't found what I've been looking for. Back when I was in the army, I started looking for a MA school. I went around to all the schools off base and asked one simple question "what makes your school different from the others". Only one stood out and they said a few things like 1) expect to go home bruised and sore as we train for the real world. 2) we teach to go after the limbs as a man with a broken arm can't fight and you can eliminate opponents much quicker than going after the head and body. 3) we teach very close in fighting with very short punches (he demoed the one inch punch of BL). I do know the name of the style started with an A and it was one word and very short, but that's all I know and I can't find that school anymore nor the style :( If any thinks he knows it, I would love to hear it.

            I have two questions:

            1) what is the difference between a system and a style. Everybody says AK is a system, not a style but it all seems like a style to me. If it's a system and not a style, which ones are styles?

            2) If forms and katas is like a dance and not useful in a fight, why are they bothered with?

            3) now you've heard my uneducated thoughts on what I believe self defense is and how AK can be a self defense MA and also what I believe is the best self defense "style" or "system", what do you believe is the best for self defense? (Note: I do not consider any ground system a self defense system as usually one who wants to take you down is bigger and stronger and his friend can walk up and kick you in the head while you are down and you are out and possible dead).

            Sorry for such a long post. I've had a lot to say after reading these blogs for a couple of weeks now while doing my research.

            BTW: I'm in search of the best system to use against multiple attackers in the street, not one on one stuff so ground stuff is definitely out.
            Too long didn't read it all. I'm pretty sure most of it is just ignorance.

            Anyway:
            1. A style is higher than a system and less specific.
            2. Read more post less.
            3. See #2

            Comment


              #7
              Now, you line up two guys in a ring and say "go", well, all that self defense stuff goes out the window.
              yeah...no.

              Comment


                #8
                No matter what martial art you learn, you're not going to be taking out pirates with it, even if you do have a stick. If you want to keep yourself safe, you'd be best off learning how to keep a low profile and get savy to the local customs. Get a cheap mobile phone and watch as well.

                What's the difference between a system and a style? Semantics.

                Why learn forms? Why not, some people find it fun.

                What's the best system/style to learn? One where you learn to take your knocks and still do what you've been taught. Boxing, judo, wrestling, BJJ, MMA, etc are all good options. It really comes down to what's available, and you should try to learn how to strike and grapple. Also, while you might not think it's worth your while learning to fight on the ground, you often don't get to make that choice, it's a lot easier for somebody to pull you down than it is to stay standing.

                Comment


                  #9
                  American Kenpo works given that your opponent doesn't have training of his own. I've used Kenpo in a few self-defense situations and it served me well, but I still have issues with it. Here they are:

                  1) AK assumes lack of training on the part of the opponent.
                  2) AK techniques are not easily scalable for levels of force.
                  3) Lacks grappling and the way I see it, high school wrestling is the most common martial art in the US.
                  4) AK overestimates the deadliness of its strikes.
                  5) Lack of a decent guard.
                  6) Your opponent freezes in space after his strike. TRAIN ALIVE!

                  So basically, AK has some good principles but the training is crap. You're much better off training boxing or muay thai if you want to learn a striking art.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by JackJack View Post
                    Self defense is about knowing what to do when somebody approaches and attacks.
                    True.

                    Any proof that AK teaches that better than, say, boxing?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rivington View Post
                      True.

                      Any proof that AK teaches that better than, say, boxing?
                      Yup...plenty of examples.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by wetware View Post
                        American Kenpo works given that your opponent doesn't have training of his own. I've used Kenpo in a few self-defense situations and it served me well, but I still have issues with it. Here they are:

                        1) AK assumes lack of training on the part of the opponent.
                        2) AK techniques are not easily scalable for levels of force.
                        3) Lacks grappling and the way I see it, high school wrestling is the most common martial art in the US.
                        4) AK overestimates the deadliness of its strikes.
                        5) Lack of a decent guard.
                        6) Your opponent freezes in space after his strike. TRAIN ALIVE!

                        So basically, AK has some good principles but the training is crap. You're much better off training boxing or muay thai if you want to learn a striking art.
                        You should learn to qualify your posts. Even if you're going to come off as a pseudo expert on the subject.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ho Homega View Post
                          Yup...plenty of examples.
                          Such as? Note, I'm not saying that kempo is ineffective.

                          By the same token, I'm able to practice taiji's self-defense techniques without suggesting that judo is inadequate because few muggers wear thick pajamas to alleyways.
                          Last edited by Rivington; 12/31/2010 12:56pm, .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I have an entire thread dedicated to this Rivington. I think Boxing as a self defense is about absurd as horseback riding.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ho Homega View Post
                              I have an entire thread dedicated to this Rivington. I think Boxing as a self defense is about absurd as horseback riding.
                              I'll search for it, thanks.

                              Comment

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