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Gracie Combatives MABS Cull: Why is IiF laughing at my "Paper Tiger" comment?

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    Gracie Combatives MABS Cull: Why is IiF laughing at my "Paper Tiger" comment?

    Opinions are like assholes, everyone has them and they all stink...
    with that prelude, here is my humble opinion...

    I like Gracie Jiu Jitsu as an art, I feel like it's one of the most effective grappling systems on the planet. It certainly has shown to be very effective in one-on-one confrontations under minimal rules as per the original UFC.

    That being said, those conditions are very artificial. The potential for weapons to be involved or for other people to get involved were highly unlikely (hell, it does happen at sport fights however, a sporting event is a sporting event) and they knew that they were going to be fighting at a particular time under a particular set of rules, regardless of how minimal they were in those beginning days of the UFC.

    Gracie/Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is a great art, and it is probably the most thorough solution to fighting a larger opponent over a long period of time on the ground. A fight or an assault is different...and you don't want it to take a long time, and you certainly don't want to be laying on your back or sitting on somebody's chest when their friends arrive or rolling on broken glass trying with somebody who is trying to pull your seams apart with a pocket knife.

    Combatives and Gracie Jiu Jitsu don't belong in the same sentence. It's a good marketing strategy, but when I watched the end of the first disc (I borrowed them from a friend) and Royler and Renzo suggested asking a group of attackers to fight them one on one I almost lost my fucking mind. If things were that civil, you should be able to verbally diffuse the situation, or just leave. Also downplaying targeting the eyes or bites is also not wise...you CAN dislodge somebodies eye from it's orbit...trust me...as for fight bites...if somebody is trained, they can kill you or maim you for life, if not, even if you manage to come out on top, you're talking about horrendous infections. (just sit and watch the streaks crawl up your arms after a few days if you don't believe me.)

    Granted...I'm not from a family who has a long standing dynasty in the martial arts community, I'm not a tournament winning dynamo grappler or kickboxer, or anything really...but I have seen fights unfold, and I know a little bit about people...and none of that jives with me. Still...great stuff for the ground, and everyone should have a bit of it in their tool box...but you don't want to stay in that range (if you can help it) if there is a remote possibility of other variables coming into play.

    Also...combatives implies combat, not restraint, and not self defense...it is what you do in war to enemy combatants and it isn't subject to legalities surrounding self defense. Combatives also implies minimal training time, especially for hand to hand type stuff. Gracie Jiu Jitsu/Brazillian Jiu Jitsu aren't good fits for this, despite whoever decided to use them in military training may "think".

    So...in short...
    BJJ for sport or situations where restraint is imposed upon the defender*- great
    BJJ for self defense...eh...not a first choice...at all.
    BJJ for combatives...horrible choice.

    *MAY help minimize legal issues...you can still get in tremendous shit (whether you are in the right or not).

    #2
    Originally posted by ghummel View Post
    Gracie/Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is a great art, and it is probably the most thorough solution to fighting a larger opponent over a long period of time on the ground. A fight or an assault is different...and you don't want it to take a long time, and you certainly don't want to be laying on your back or sitting on somebody's chest when their friends arrive or rolling on broken glass trying with somebody who is trying to pull your seams apart with a pocket knife.
    From reading your post, I can tell you have very minimal BJJ experience, very little actual combat experience, and are definitely not a real Jeet Kune Do practitioner.

    Originally posted by ghummel View Post
    Also downplaying targeting the eyes or bites is also not wise...you CAN dislodge somebodies eye from it's orbit...trust me...
    Why should I trust you? Who are you & what is your experience in dislodging peoples eyes in combat?

    Originally posted by ghummel View Post
    as for fight bites...if somebody is trained, they can kill you or maim you for life
    If someone is trained in biting?

    Which systems "train" biting?

    Kinamutai?

    I'm a Jeet Kune Do instructor under Paul Vunak, one of the few people who teaches kinamutai. You will not be able to apply biting against someone trained in BJJ to any great effect without similar comprehensive training. According to Paul, you're not likely to be able to use biting against a trained grappler until you've achieved a purple belt in BJJ or at least its equivalent.

    If you really need me to get into detail as to why, I will.

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      #3
      Not in this thread but how about the CMA forum? Your comment are very interesting considering the misinformation we always see about Vanuk.

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        #4
        Ooooooh, I know! Pick me!


        Because as a grappler, if you bit me I would mount you, sit on your chest and beat your face till I knocked all of your teeth out. If you roll over I would choke you out, roll you back over and return to my tooth removal program.

        Then it would get ugly.
        Walrus Mike


        http://www.phillymma.com/

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by It is Fake View Post
          Not in this thread but how about the CMA forum? Your comment are very interesting considering the misinformation we always see about Vanuk.
          I actually did a pretty decent post on it a while back, I'll see if I can link itt.

          Similar to what MK13 said, it all comes into positional understanding...which of course, requires BJJ training. You have to bite from a position where you can do so uninterrupted. While the human bite is quite nasty, if you have to bite someone in combat, you don't want to just leave a few teeth marks, or nibble, or gnaw them. You don't want to bite, have them pull away, and just be more pissed at you because you're the bastard who just bit them. You want to do extensive and continuous damage, so that when you end the bite, they have a massive traumatic wound.

          Biting is not a substitution for grappling training, but a suppliment, another tool for your box, and one you don't pull out unless absolutely necessary. It's not a worthwile risk in most situations, even combat. By the time you've gained the grappling delivery system necessary to utilize kinamutai effectively, you now also have a plethora of other options. You already know how to escape from under mount, likely through several ways. However, in that situation while one dude is on top of you...and another is on top of your lady...you may need something a bit quicker and more final than sweeping him & applying a choke or submission/joint destruction, so you go for a carotid bite. However, you stand no chance of actually being able to tear out his carotid unless you are already a competant grappler.

          Comment


            #6
            Auslander's Guiding to Biting for Combat:

            Uno
            Deux
            Sam

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
              Auslander's Guiding to Biting for Combat:

              Uno
              Deux
              Sam
              Missed that thread thank you.

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
                From reading your post, I can tell you have very minimal BJJ experience, very little actual combat experience, and are definitely not a real Jeet Kune Do practitioner.

                you're not likely to be able to use biting against a trained grappler until you've achieved a purple belt in BJJ or at least its equivalent.

                If you really need me to get into detail as to why, I will.
                Okay...whatever man. Believe what you want to believe, you don't know me so don't make assumptions about me, and lastly...sure, let's hear your details. Educate little old ignorant me.

                Obviously, I don't know much about BJJ (I can't get my R's right apparently)...but I know I personally have been kicked while I was fighting somebody on the asphalt outside of a bar, as well as have booted somebody who was mounting a friend in a third party defense situation. For that reason alone, I think its a bad idea to go to the ground. That's all.

                I am not a black belt in anything, and I didn't buy Paul Vunak's mail order instructorship, so I guess I'm not your type of JKD. I did study under a legitamite instructor for a number of years, though. I don't anymore because I don't have the money or time being a full time student. I also have a life where trolling internet forums talking shit on people I don't know isn't a priority. Just because my opinion and my experience are different, doesn't negate my training...or my experiences.

                By the way, Kinamutai isn't the only art that teaches biting... a KM instructor, a Pukulan silat instructor, a "self defense" instructor, a kenpo karate instructor, and my fucking anatomy professor all suggested it as a good means of self defense, each going into varying degress of how and when to use it. I DID NOT SUGGEST BITING AS A REPLACEMENT FOR GRAPPLING TRAINING...read my post...I said everyone should have some grappling in their tool belt, but it's unwise for the Gracie Combatives people to discount these tools as being effective...and it's retarded to take a fight to the ground and keep it there outside of a ring fight or a consentual thing.

                Also...when exactly am I going to be fighting a trained grappler in a street fight? Statistically speaking, when is that going to happen? Is there a troop of angy mixed martial artists out their looking to rob and rape and murder? It could happen, I guess. Let's play more "what ifs" sometime...

                You may be a JKD instructor under Vunak...but how the hell do I know YOU'RE not a paper tiger...because from what I see from your post your experience doesn't jive with my experience.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Um...okay...you moved the thread...?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks.

                    It has been awhile since I have seen every Martial Arts cliche, ever used on this website or the MA community for that matter, typed out by one poster in two posts.


                    You only forgot the lava and needles.

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                      #11
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf-JLRr-RY0 (my point)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        What immature bullshit. I was having a conversation, there is no need to be so defensive just because I disagree with somebody. Here's an idea...if something I'd said was so off the wall you believed it needed to be moved, PM me...if it's because I questioned Golden Boy's creds...he attacked my character and training right off the bat. You guys are awfully clique-ish here.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by ghummel View Post
                          Um...okay...you moved the thread...?
                          No, I moved your derail starting post and all that followed.
                          Why?

                          The original thread here:
                          http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61440

                          is way past your sport vs. street vs. Paper Tiger vs. glass vs. multiple attackers vs. anecdotal evidence vs. assumptions vs. passive aggressiveness vs. etc etc etc.

                          Now, if you want, I can post the articles we have of BJJ TRAINED WOMEN stopping assaults. Before you do that weird restructuring of your argument, I'm not disagreeing that GC may have flaws.

                          I'm specifically addressing this silliness:
                          Gracie/Brazillian Jiu Jitsu is a great art, and it is probably the most thorough solution to fighting a larger opponent over a long period of time on the ground. A fight or an assault is different...and you don't want it to take a long time, and you certainly don't want to be laying on your back or sitting on somebody's chest when their friends arrive or rolling on broken glass trying with somebody who is trying to pull your seams apart with a pocket knife.
                          What you typed applies to striking as well.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by ghummel View Post
                            What immature bullshit. I was having a conversation, there is no need to be so defensive just because I disagree with somebody. Here's an idea...if something I'd said was so off the wall you believed it needed to be moved, PM me...if it's because I questioned Golden Boy's creds...he attacked my character and training right off the bat. You guys are awfully clique-ish here.
                            '�I am no advocate of passivity,� Coffin Mott said in an 1860 speech. �Quakerism, as I understand it, does not mean quietism. The early Friends were agitators; disturbers of the peace; and were more obnoxious in their day to charges, which are now so freely made, than we are.�'

                            My Glossary: https://www.bullshido.net/forums/sho...d.php?t=129294

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Why does this shit always get started. NOTHING prepares you for a real life situation. WTF are you going to do with your deadly skillz if something you didn't train for comes up. Will you be able to tap? will the bell ring? no. NO ONE HAS A SYSTEM. Please, just stop it. Sure. If you get into a bar fight and a guy stands right in front of you you have a good chance of landing some shots...but what if you slip on some ice or something? Too many variables. Just shut up and train! Fuck!

                              We will not even get into the discussion if you are drunk off your ass or got blue ballz from the hot chick at the bar that you're not going to fuck.

                              In a real fight are you going to take it to the ground, stay standing or hit a mutha fucka over the head with a chair or as doug stanhope said "do some chest bumping till the bouncers come"? Frankly that's how about oh I don't know 100% of all "real life fight situations" end.

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