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Delta Force: Central Cali TD

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  • vinhthekid
    replied
    please god someone fly me out to fight dtt... and i'm not taking it easy.

    think of it as dennis the menace grown up and beating up one of his teachers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domite
    replied
    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    So why do people think it can be used to test out techniques?
    Because it can. If you can't pull it off sparring, you aren't pulling it off anywhere else, except complaint partner demos.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jack Rusher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    you recognized I was pulling this punch and just left your hands down low by your waist? and that if I was moving faster you would have blocked it?
    What I'm saying is that my head moved off the line of your strike, and that my head probably would have moved differently if your strike had moved differently. Now we can't find out what would have happened if you'd really tried to hit me because you were swinging to miss. Which is a shame.

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    You can do an immediate arm lock? thats pretty fast! I bet there is no immediate counter to it in any system on the planet either.
    The headlock sets up the armlock; it's a gimme. The way grapplers counter that particular setup is not to do the headlock in the first place.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    replied
    Originally posted by jackrusher


    But, as per the above, you'd have a 49/51 chance of beating him in a real fight?
    We are not strangers. It was not on the street, I am not going to go to my car and get a rifle out afterwards.......its a stat about anyones risk of losing, not about winning.


    Originally posted by jackrusher
    Sparring isn't a contest. It's a training method. The only way to lose is to do it wrong.
    So why do people think it can be used to test out techniques? I agree with what you said. My point was that since good techniques can also fail, even with contact sparring you have to use a critical mind to look at what happened and why. So the danger of injury is unnecessary, all the time, when looking at technical issues.



    Originally posted by jackrusher
    You believe this? Dealing with intensity and aggression are magically accounted for by "lite contact using functional movement patterns"?
    Not sure what you mean here. As I said we do both, and each is training a different area. When dealing with intensity and aggression, safety is more important, so many techniques are removed. Elbows are a perfect example.

    [ ... video ... ]

    Originally posted by jackrusher
    Regarding your comments in the video: why in God's name would you ask for light contact sparring and then conduct no-contact sparring? Why do you think changing your strike wouldn't change my defense? I don't block what's going to miss anyway.
    so you are saying here:



    you recognized I was pulling this punch and just left your hands down low by your waist? and that if I was moving faster you would have blocked it?

    OK, thats fine, I will take your word for it. I made contact after that all the way until I caught you before you slammed into the mirror.


    [QUOTE=jackrusher]It's not just that you aren't good at that pass, it's that that pass is crap. [/block]

    I agree the pass I did (failed) is crap. I was referring to a different one I was taught recently but I don't know the proper name of it. I did not even try it as it risks a triangle, and it is from BJJ not some anti-grappling program.


    Originally posted by jackrusher
    That was a headlock, not a guillotine. You'll come to understand the enormous difference if you take up Satori's offer. The moment my head was out you were in a very bad position that would have resulted in an immediate sub via armlock without my needing to mount you first, though I understand that you can't see why.
    You can do an immediate arm lock? thats pretty fast! I bet there is no immediate counter to it in any system on the planet either.
    I agree I was in a very bad position.

    Leave a comment:


  • Hedgehogey
    replied
    That was a headlock, not a guillotine. You'll come to understand the enormous difference if you take up Satori's offer. The moment my head was out you were in a very bad position that would have resulted in an immediate sub via armlock without my needing to mount you first, though I understand that you can't see why.
    This bears highlighting. This is exactly what the dirt ninja believes. Verbatim. You both believe in schoolyard headlocks from under side control.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jack Rusher
    replied
    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Any two people fighting have a 50/50 chance of winning. All the training in the world vs a stranger changes the odds only to 51/49.
    Good grief. Is it your contention that (for example) GSP's fight record is essentially the result of his winning 16 out of 18 coin tosses? If you're trying to say that flukes happen, no one will argue, but calling every fight an even chance is an act of gross innumeracy.

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    WT is based on having that level of a teacher run you through everything. It is not sparring, he could destroy me at any time.
    But, as per the above, you'd have a 49/51 chance of beating him in a real fight?

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    When two MMA guys spar and one losses
    Sparring isn't a contest. It's a training method. The only way to lose is to do it wrong.

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Gloves and protection are vital as the contact level goes up. [...] it is not any more realistic then lite contact using functional movement patterns.
    You believe this? Dealing with intensity and aggression are magically accounted for by "lite contact using functional movement patterns"?

    [ ... video ... ]

    Regarding your comments in the video: why in God's name would you ask for light contact sparring and then conduct no-contact sparring? Why do you think changing your strike wouldn't change my defense? I don't block what's going to miss anyway.

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    I did try the elbow to thigh-lean-back-pry-away move but he held on and I am not good enough to...
    It's not just that you aren't good at that pass, it's that that pass is crap.

    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    the first side mount he took from within guillotine I think I could have prevented a mount when he escaped
    That was a headlock, not a guillotine. You'll come to understand the enormous difference if you take up Satori's offer. The moment my head was out you were in a very bad position that would have resulted in an immediate sub via armlock without my needing to mount you first, though I understand that you can't see why.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Domite

    Without replying to the whole post, don't you think MMA gloves are similar enough to bare hands?
    Try it and find out.

    In WT we have a method to train with no gloves, and it can be very intense, full cardio, controlled through the all the functional movement patterns, yet still random and alive. It can go on for an hour sometimes, non-stop.

    Then there is with 4oz gloves, which only minimizes the "sharpness" of impact, but still trying to run through all the cycles randomly. With these the contact can stick alittle.

    These two are the type of contact you can use to explore what is going on, what could be better or worse(look at the possibilities). We use it to develop the skill needed to fight, as in muscle memory and awareness patterns.

    then it moves up through what your familiar with from MMA sparring. This is to try it out and see if it is working, to test where are your holes and weakness.

    There is also circle drills with the attackers being suited up and attacking while the guy in the middle has only mouth guard and 4 oz gloves. In this situation the attack is known but only medium contact level and the defender can defend full contact.

    Then the guy in the middle is suited up and the attacks are not known. In this type of circle drill the attackers have minimal armor and go full force and the guy practicing must react but suppress his counter attack. It is to develop visual reactions and pantomime, not stop hitting.

    Then both are fully padded up and both attack full contact, but still one person is the designated defender. It is he who is training.

    Finally you can have full contact, true unrestrained contact hitting to knock out type sparring. Here both people are training to fight, but it is not developing anything new, it is trying to implement what you have and get the timing of it.

    So we want to have various levels of padding and no padding, controlled work to develop good habits and random work to see if you can maintain control. When people tell me to go full contact, that to me is the only the last situation, actually hitting each other as hard as you can.


    even more: One time at a seminar my Sifu was testing me out, attacking me with all kinds of stuff from MT, boxing, wrestling, high kicks, throws, etc... He put on some gloves and said, "these are for you, not me." I asked if I should wear some too, he said it didn't matter to him, I wasn't going to get through. I didn't. He worked me over and the inch of padding allowed a thin margin for him to stop his hits after contact. So I didn't get any cuts and he didn't bust a knuckle. I was actually allowed to try and attack him as hard and as real as I could.(I did have a cup and mouth piece)

    WT is based on having that level of a teacher run you through everything. It is not sparring, he could destroy me at any time. It is a controlled cycle. It is scary as hell. Sparring is more for equal level people to do a certain kind of practice.
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 5/17/2008 2:58pm, .

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  • Frank White
    replied
    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    Sparring is not a good way to test theories.
    I disagree.

    Sparring is great for testing out what you have developed, not actually developing itself.
    OK, now I agree.

    Yet somehow, it doesn't help ease my troubled heart.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domite
    replied
    "Now how do you practice what its like when you only have normal sized hands?"

    Without replying to the whole post, don't you think MMA gloves are similar enough to bare hands?

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Domite
    Can you explain what you mean by this?
    It refers to the notion you can see how good a style is, what its potential is, by having to people spar. I do not think you can. To answer this question you need to look at what ifs and technical issues and then think about it, try the moves slowly and see whats going on.

    Sparring tests how good an individual is, but not the style. It would take many, many people doing many, many sparring to even try this kind of style test, and even then you have a bias due to the population of people that choose to train in it.

    Originally posted by Domite
    Within 4-6 months, you should have developed enough to "test out." If you meant not sparring with people outside your gym as a total raw noob, okay, I can see that, but that's not what it sounded like.
    This is a matter of opinion, the within 6 months thing, but I will agree here.

    Inversely, the notion that NOT letting students spar outside the school means only that the style must suck is flawed. That was my main point. There are many other reasons to not want students fighting/sparring in other schools beside the style sucking or fear of lossing business.


    Originally posted by Domite
    Oh, I understood. What wasn't clear in your post is how long it takes to get good enough to spar with someone from, say, a boxing gym.
    Boxing is great, and it takes little time to get good at those 3 punches and some footwork to start sparring. Styles which seek to deal with EVERY possible attack take much longer, and learning to do it safely longer still. As Jack said he could only lower his power by backing up.


    Originally posted by Domite
    Okay, how about: He was only "in your control" because he was handling you with kid gloves, because he is a nice guy and wanted to cut through the ego bullshit that Internet shit-talking makes inevitable. Better?
    Thats was sarcasm. I was asked what I thought about how I dealt with it, and I thought it was not really a situation that warranted escaping, nor did he offer me any thing to work from. It was a paradox.


    Originally posted by Domite
    I think I pretty much answered the second half of your question, but what I mean by hard, is what it looks like when two reasonably experienced boxing/Muay Thai/San Shou/Koukushin guys go at it. That's basically what I mean by hard sparring. If you want further clarification, I could find some videos.
    OK, cool. So not hard enough to really hurt each other but hard enough to bruise, and using large gloves and head gear? Great. Now how do you practice what its like when you only have normal sized hands?

    What WT and escrima are looking at developing is the collision of limbs/weapons and the muscle memory for these reactions. Sparring is not a good way to develop these skills on purpose because of the danger of injury and because you need to do each specific type repeatedly. We are not developing punch/block visual based methods like MMA. Sparring is great for developing visual based reaction time and trading punches. It is not great for improving techniques specifically.

    Sparring is great for testing out what you have developed, not actually developing itself. Now I mentioned the armored up glove vs no glove thing because there is a fine line between sparring at the two different intensity's, and i think you would find that they basically are close to the same thing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Domite
    replied
    study technical issues.
    Can you explain what you mean by this?

    I played with Jack until he left and then did a couple rounds of escrima in a sweat suit of padded armor and I was talking the whole time so I don't think you where referring to me?
    No, the point of my post wasn't to insult you. I was talking about the hypothetical person who you said got tired in 60 seconds from sparring.

    You said:

    Sparring tires some people out in only 60 seconds, so how much improvement can they make?
    Not very much, but if they tire out in 60 seconds, then they have bigger problems then technique. Anyone training to fight, or in a martial art at all, should have more cardio than that. And when they do, then they can spar for a few rounds, and take quite a bit from it. Information that they can use not just in sparring, but also in technique. I'm also not discounting other methods of refining technique, which are equally necessary.

    Full/Hard contact doesn't mean going balls out at anaerobic maximum, if it did, everyone really would be tired in 60 seconds. I figure you know that already, but never hurts to be safe.

    Why would you spar with other styles if you haven't developed anything to test out?
    Within 4-6 months, you should have developed enough to "test out." If you meant not sparring with people outside your gym as a total raw noob, okay, I can see that, but that's not what it sounded like.


    Originally posted by You said:
    again, you are ignoring the part were i said to do both.
    Originally posted by You said:
    Then spar on occasion to put it to use.
    Originally posted by Domite said:
    methods that encourage frequent hard sparring, right?
    Sorry if my point wasn't clear enough.

    Don't spar outside 'til good.
    Spar inside to get good.
    Oh, I understood. What wasn't clear in your post is how long it takes to get good enough to spar with someone from, say, a boxing gym.


    Try harder next time but thanks for playing.
    Okay, how about: He was only "in your control" because he was handling you with kid gloves, because he is a nice guy and wanted to cut through the ego bullshit that Internet shit-talking makes inevitable. Better?


    define "hard"? then tell me how you know we don't do that...
    I think I pretty much answered the second half of your question, but what I mean by hard, is what it looks like when two reasonably experienced boxing/Muay Thai/San Shou/Koukushin guys go at it. That's basically what I mean by hard sparring. If you want further clarification, I could find some videos.

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    replied
    I got a question, do they still teach people to read the whole paragraph for content or are people on here making judgments based only on single sentences?

    I know its a stretch to hope people read more then one paragraph and tie the information together, like is done in books, but damb, it was two sentences one after another in the middle of what he quoted:!

    Don't spar outside 'til good.
    Spar inside to get good.

    is that simple 'unouf for you dolimite? I know my dyslexia flips my p and b but damb, NickleBack is really screwing us.


    (note: Nickleback is school teacher slang for No Child Left Behind, NCLB)

    Leave a comment:


  • Dr._Tzun_Tzu
    replied
    Originally posted by Domite
    What?

    How could you believe any of what you just wrote here? Sparring encourages people to be sloppy? You must understand that the way you train does not teach you how to fight as well as other methods that encourage frequent hard sparring, right?

    Sparring is "sloppy" because it isn't a preset excersize with a preset motion, it is random and improvised, like one of those "real fights" you were talking about earlier. To me it seems self evident that it would be nessisary to become accustomed to dealing with a random, improvised situation.
    It is a poor method to study techniques for their functional value do to the large number of variables. It is sloppy and thus not the best way to develop movement patterns.

    I did not say not to spar, I said it is not a good way to study technical issues.

    Originally posted by Domite
    And if sparring tires someone out in 60 seconds, what do you think that says about thier athleticism? And how do you think that would affect them in a "real fight"?
    I would hope they do some cardio and other exercise in a much safer environment? I have mentioned a few, but there is also treadmills and circuit training. One method I have mentioned would be safe, controlled, cycling through proper movement patterns under resistant pressure for hours on end. i.e. developing proper muscle recruitment patterns while slowly and carefully increasing the speed, randomness, and stress. Then spar on occasion to put it to use.

    I played with Jack until he left and then did a couple rounds of escrima in a sweat suit of padded armor and I was talking the whole time so I don't think you where referring to me?

    Originally posted by Domite
    Most importantly, what do you think a policy about not sparring with other styles says about the attitude of the people who practice it?
    Why would you spar with other styles if you haven't developed anything to test out? Further, have you considered its possible that a style might have masters of multiple styles with in itself, that test you out in seminars? If you reread my post I said it is not encouraged except for people that are good fighters from training. otherwise it makes the system look bad and it makes the student feel weak.



    Originally posted by Domite
    I really, really, really, disagree with you on that. I suppose the only way to prove it would be to have somebody who spars hard with gear in a sports ruleset spar hard without gear against somebody who trains light contact using "functional movement patterns."
    again, you are ignoring the part were i said to do both.


    Originally posted by Domite
    :eusa_thin
    Try harder next time but thanks for playing.

    Originally posted by Domite
    You must understand that the way you train does not teach you how to fight as well as other methods that encourage frequent hard sparring, right?
    define "hard"? then tell me how you know we don't do that.........
    Last edited by Dr._Tzun_Tzu; 5/17/2008 1:00am, .

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  • vinhthekid
    replied
    go domite!

    Leave a comment:


  • Domite
    replied
    Originally posted by Dr._Tzun_Tzu

    Sparring is generally two trained people so we are back at 50/50. Even the Gracies lose. When two MMA guys spar and one losses what does it prove, if they are both doing the same system? Nothing except who is a better fighter.
    Sparring tires some people out in only 60 seconds, so how much improvement can they make? Sparring is sloppy and promotes muscle recruitment in sloppy patterns. So WT people have not done free sparring with strangers unless they are very good high caliber fighters. We do spar in house but not with the other styles. WT trys to spar in a controled manner to use functional movement patterns not sloppy ones.
    What?

    How could you believe any of what you just wrote here? Sparring encourages people to be sloppy? You must understand that the way you train does not teach you how to fight as well as other methods that encourage frequent hard sparring, right?

    Sparring is "sloppy" because it isn't a preset excersize with a preset motion, it is random and improvised, like one of those "real fights" you were talking about earlier. To me it seems self evident that it would be nessisary to become accustomed to dealing with a random, improvised situation.

    And if sparring tires someone out in 60 seconds, what do you think that says about thier athleticism? And how do you think that would affect them in a "real fight"?

    Most importantly, what do you think a policy about not sparring with other styles says about the attitude of the people who practice it?

    It is great and required training, as you said to feel it and get used to contact. But it is not any more realistic then lite contact using functional movement patterns.
    I really, really, really, disagree with you on that. I suppose the only way to prove it would be to have somebody who spars hard with gear in a sports ruleset spar hard without gear against somebody who trains light contact using "functional movement patterns."


    He was in my control because he did nothing.
    :eusa_thin

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