Delta Force: Central Cali TD

[Frank White]

Sparring is not a good way to test theories.

I disagree.

Sparring is great for testing out what you have developed, not actually developing itself.

OK, now I agree.

Yet somehow, it doesn't help ease my troubled heart.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

Without replying to the whole post, don't you think MMA gloves are similar enough to bare hands?

Try it and find out.

In WT we have a method to train with no gloves, and it can be very intense, full cardio, controlled through the all the functional movement patterns, yet still random and alive. It can go on for an hour sometimes, non-stop.

Then there is with 4oz gloves, which only minimizes the "sharpness" of impact, but still trying to run through all the cycles randomly. With these the contact can stick alittle.

These two are the type of contact you can use to explore what is going on, what could be better or worse(look at the possibilities). We use it to develop the skill needed to fight, as in muscle memory and awareness patterns.

then it moves up through what your familiar with from MMA sparring. This is to try it out and see if it is working, to test where are your holes and weakness.

There is also circle drills with the attackers being suited up and attacking while the guy in the middle has only mouth guard and 4 oz gloves. In this situation the attack is known but only medium contact level and the defender can defend full contact.

Then the guy in the middle is suited up and the attacks are not known. In this type of circle drill the attackers have minimal armor and go full force and the guy practicing must react but suppress his counter attack. It is to develop visual reactions and pantomime, not stop hitting.

Then both are fully padded up and both attack full contact, but still one person is the designated defender. It is he who is training.

Finally you can have full contact, true unrestrained contact hitting to knock out type sparring. Here both people are training to fight, but it is not developing anything new, it is trying to implement what you have and get the timing of it.

So we want to have various levels of padding and no padding, controlled work to develop good habits and random work to see if you can maintain control. When people tell me to go full contact, that to me is the only the last situation, actually hitting each other as hard as you can.


even more: One time at a seminar my Sifu was testing me out, attacking me with all kinds of stuff from MT, boxing, wrestling, high kicks, throws, etc... He put on some gloves and said, "these are for you, not me." I asked if I should wear some too, he said it didn't matter to him, I wasn't going to get through. I didn't. He worked me over and the inch of padding allowed a thin margin for him to stop his hits after contact. So I didn't get any cuts and he didn't bust a knuckle. I was actually allowed to try and attack him as hard and as real as I could.(I did have a cup and mouth piece)

WT is based on having that level of a teacher run you through everything. It is not sparring, he could destroy me at any time. It is a controlled cycle. It is scary as hell. Sparring is more for equal level people to do a certain kind of practice.

[Jack Rusher]

Any two people fighting have a 50/50 chance of winning. All the training in the world vs a stranger changes the odds only to 51/49.

Good grief. Is it your contention that (for example) GSP's fight record is essentially the result of his winning 16 out of 18 coin tosses? If you're trying to say that flukes happen, no one will argue, but calling every fight an even chance is an act of gross innumeracy.

WT is based on having that level of a teacher run you through everything. It is not sparring, he could destroy me at any time.

But, as per the above, you'd have a 49/51 chance of beating him in a real fight?

When two MMA guys spar and one losses

Sparring isn't a contest. It's a training method. The only way to lose is to do it wrong.

Gloves and protection are vital as the contact level goes up. [...] it is not any more realistic then lite contact using functional movement patterns.

You believe this? Dealing with intensity and aggression are magically accounted for by "lite contact using functional movement patterns"?

[ ... video ... ]

Regarding your comments in the video: why in God's name would you ask for light contact sparring and then conduct no-contact sparring? Why do you think changing your strike wouldn't change my defense? I don't block what's going to miss anyway.

I did try the elbow to thigh-lean-back-pry-away move but he held on and I am not good enough to...

It's not just that you aren't good at that pass, it's that that pass is crap.

the first side mount he took from within guillotine I think I could have prevented a mount when he escaped

That was a headlock, not a guillotine. You'll come to understand the enormous difference if you take up Satori's offer. The moment my head was out you were in a very bad position that would have resulted in an immediate sub via armlock without my needing to mount you first, though I understand that you can't see why.

[Hedgehogey]

That was a headlock, not a guillotine. You'll come to understand the enormous difference if you take up Satori's offer. The moment my head was out you were in a very bad position that would have resulted in an immediate sub via armlock without my needing to mount you first, though I understand that you can't see why.

This bears highlighting. This is exactly what the dirt ninja believes. Verbatim. You both believe in schoolyard headlocks from under side control.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

But, as per the above, you'd have a 49/51 chance of beating him in a real fight?

We are not strangers. It was not on the street, I am not going to go to my car and get a rifle out afterwards.......its a stat about anyones risk of losing, not about winning.

Sparring isn't a contest. It's a training method. The only way to lose is to do it wrong.

So why do people think it can be used to test out techniques? I agree with what you said. My point was that since good techniques can also fail, even with contact sparring you have to use a critical mind to look at what happened and why. So the danger of injury is unnecessary, all the time, when looking at technical issues.

You believe this? Dealing with intensity and aggression are magically accounted for by "lite contact using functional movement patterns"?

Not sure what you mean here. As I said we do both, and each is training a different area. When dealing with intensity and aggression, safety is more important, so many techniques are removed. Elbows are a perfect example.

[ ... video ... ]

Regarding your comments in the video: why in God's name would you ask for light contact sparring and then conduct no-contact sparring? Why do you think changing your strike wouldn't change my defense? I don't block what's going to miss anyway.

so you are saying here:



you recognized I was pulling this punch and just left your hands down low by your waist? and that if I was moving faster you would have blocked it?

OK, thats fine, I will take your word for it. I made contact after that all the way until I caught you before you slammed into the mirror.


[QUOTE=jackrusher]It's not just that you aren't good at that pass, it's that that pass is crap. [/block]

I agree the pass I did (failed) is crap. I was referring to a different one I was taught recently but I don't know the proper name of it. I did not even try it as it risks a triangle, and it is from BJJ not some anti-grappling program.

That was a headlock, not a guillotine. You'll come to understand the enormous difference if you take up Satori's offer. The moment my head was out you were in a very bad position that would have resulted in an immediate sub via armlock without my needing to mount you first, though I understand that you can't see why.

You can do an immediate arm lock? thats pretty fast! I bet there is no immediate counter to it in any system on the planet either.
I agree I was in a very bad position.

[Jack Rusher]

you recognized I was pulling this punch and just left your hands down low by your waist? and that if I was moving faster you would have blocked it?

What I'm saying is that my head moved off the line of your strike, and that my head probably would have moved differently if your strike had moved differently. Now we can't find out what would have happened if you'd really tried to hit me because you were swinging to miss. Which is a shame.

You can do an immediate arm lock? thats pretty fast! I bet there is no immediate counter to it in any system on the planet either.

The headlock sets up the armlock; it's a gimme. The way grapplers counter that particular setup is not to do the headlock in the first place.

[Domite]

So why do people think it can be used to test out techniques?

Because it can. If you can't pull it off sparring, you aren't pulling it off anywhere else, except complaint partner demos.

[vinhthekid]

please god someone fly me out to fight dtt... and i'm not taking it easy.

think of it as dennis the menace grown up and beating up one of his teachers.