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  • Teh El Macho
    replied
    Originally posted by Equipoise
    Garlic supplementation increases testicular testosterone and decreases plasma corticosterone in rats fed a high protein diet.
    So if I eat garlic, my balls are gonna grow? Holy shit, that's so fucking cool!!!!

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  • CNagy
    replied
    Alright, now that you've explained it and it is in context, I am ready to concede the point. But since we are talking out of context, without quoting a study regarding the threshold of how much phytoestrogen it takes to affect the receptors, comparing soy and garlic only shows garlic has very little [whatever is being measured] in comparison to soy. That doesn't tell anyone anything about how much [whatever is being measured] it takes to have an effect.

    You pretty much jump from saying that garlic has little in comparison to the idea that you'd have to eat it by the clove. You certainly don't have to humor me, but I'd like to see the backup on that one.

    Edit: For the record, I didn't say that Garlic lowered T. I said it raised E, as all my sources have said.

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  • Equipoise
    replied
    Originally posted by CNagy
    That's excellent. As far as I know, steroids do that too (increase testosterone in the body, for the most part,) and then for whatever reason the byproduct of that testosterone is more estrogen (aromatize? metasticize? I don't remember the word.)
    Extra T gets aromatized by the body to try and regulate levels of both hormones. Steroids do more than just raise T levels. There are many many different types and they all do a variety of things. T can be injected on its own as well.

    [QUOTE] Then, the byproduct of the extra estrogen (right now I am talking about steroids) is gynocomastia, or bitch tits.[/quote}

    Gynomastia can occur for reasons other than just extra estrogen. A hormone imbalance can cause this even during a cycle of AAS.

    While I am not stating that garlic will raise your estrogen that high (it was, in fact, a joke regarding the italians,) I am saying that there are more than enough places that state garlic raises estrogen, and you aren't exactly refuting it. Now, let me pose a hypothetical question. If we look at different points of the same process, can we draw completely different conclusions?
    <- Italian. I'm also refuting that statement, IE I said the fact that garlic lowers T levels is bullshit. The "more than enough places" so far consist of anecdotal evidence which means squat along with some hippie feminist run site that has absolutely NO scientific evidence to state the garlic lowers T levels. Your herbal chem site quote is horribly out of context and let's analyze the estrogenic properties of garlic versus soy.

    Soy flour - 130.92

    Garlic- 0.380

    That's per gram. So if you feel like eating garlic by the clove to the point that it MIGHT effect androgen receptors, go ahead. As for people who like garlic, whether it be a little or a lot, it won't be a problem. In an extreme doseage one would have to worry about blood poisoning, ulcers and a plethora of other problems before the androgen receptors would even be analyzed. The Allicin in garlic far outweighs the estrogenic properties in any doseage. The estrogen is also healthy as both hormones need to be in balance. The testicles do produce a fair amt of estrogen as well as testosterone.
    Last edited by Equipoise; 5/03/2006 6:39pm, .

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  • CNagy
    replied
    That's excellent. As far as I know, steroids do that too (increase testosterone in the body, for the most part,) and then for whatever reason the byproduct of that testosterone is more estrogen (aromatize? metasticize? I don't remember the word.)

    Then, the byproduct of the extra estrogen (right now I am talking about steroids) is gynocomastia, or bitch tits. While I am not stating that garlic will raise your estrogen that high (it was, in fact, a joke regarding the italians,) I am saying that there are more than enough places that state garlic raises estrogen, and you aren't exactly refuting it.

    Now, let me pose a hypothetical question. If we look at different points of the same process, can we draw completely different conclusions?
    Last edited by CNagy; 5/03/2006 5:14am, .

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  • Equipoise
    replied
    Garlic supplementation increases testicular testosterone and decreases plasma corticosterone in rats fed a high protein diet.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/131/8/2150 <-- full study.

    "Garlic is a wonderful herb that contains a potent active ingredient called allicin that helps to increase testosterone."

    http://www.testosterone-booster-guid...tosterone.html



    "...garlic is a fantastic vegetable, it assists in testosterone production and suppresses cortisol production."

    http://www.extremenutrition.co.uk/ne...-anabolics.php

    Leave a comment:


  • CNagy
    replied
    HerbalChem.net lists Garlic as a phytoestrogen which "...are not identical to steroids but have enough features in common that they can affect steroid receptors and hormone metabolism in cells."
    http://www.herbalchem.net/Introductory.htm

    SensibleHealth.com lists Garlic as a food with estrogenic activity.
    http://www.sensiblehealth.com/estrogen.html

    And here we have an explaination of the effects of phytoestrogen on the reproductive systems of mammals.
    http://classes.aces.uiuc.edu/AnSci30...odulators.html

    Now, I'm not a biologist, but the gist of what I am reading is that garlic is a what I have been told time and against that it is.

    Leave a comment:


  • CNagy
    replied
    Out of context wins the day?

    • Avoidance of soy products
    • Garlic, onions
    • Grapes
    • Aspirin
    • Olive oil
    I hesistated on including that reference, because when you look at the list instead of one line, you see that it can be interpreted either way. Of course, the other reason I included it was because in light of pretty much everyone I've talked to and everything I've read (which seemed credible) all had the same opinion.

    Thank you for attacking the source instead of me, the poster. Now, I'm trying to understand what you find faulty with the first source, is it the name? Is it the fact that it is geared towards women? You wanted sources, I gave you the 2 minute google search version.

    I'll look for a scientific study to back it up, but I won't look very hard. I've heard the assertion made regarding garlic from more than enough people and read it in more than enough locations for me to feel comfortable in throwing it out onto the net. If I am wrong, and I find proof to that effect (or you post proof to that effect,) I'll be the first to admit it.

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  • Equipoise
    replied
    Originally posted by CNagy
    A quick net search gives the following results:

    Jennifer Erwin lists garlic as an Estrogen raising food in Matrifocus magazine.
    http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM03/greenwitch.htm

    The Connective Tissue Disorder Site, run by one Sandy Simmons, lists avoiding garlic as a factor in reducing estrogen levels.
    http://www.ctds.info/menorrhagia_diet.html

    I haven't seen onions mentioned anywhere.

    Did you even look at the source of your first listing.. "MatriFocus, a Cross-Quarterly Web Magazine for Goddess Women Near & Far."

    As for your second listing.. Lifestyle factors often recommended to lower estrogen levels (and possibly help menorrhagia due to high estrogen levels) include: **Garlic**

    Do you even read what you list as reputable sources?

    Even if it did say what you wanted it to, where is your direct source and scientific study that says Garlic raises Estrogen levels.

    Leave a comment:


  • CNagy
    replied
    A quick net search gives the following results:

    Jennifer Erwin lists garlic as an Estrogen raising food in Matrifocus magazine.
    http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM03/greenwitch.htm

    The Connective Tissue Disorder Site, run by one Sandy Simmons, lists avoiding garlic as a factor in reducing estrogen levels.
    http://www.ctds.info/menorrhagia_diet.html

    I haven't seen onions mentioned anywhere.

    Leave a comment:


  • CNagy
    replied
    Originally posted by Equipoise
    Snip
    I'm repeating advice I've been told by more than a few trainers and bodybuilders. That said, I suppose the information could be suspect. I'll try to find sources.

    As for the anti-estrogen pills, I'm not talking about over the counter. Again, my primary source of information is bodybuilders, and the ones I talked to pretty much stated that the pills flush excess estrogen (from aromatizing steroids like certain flavours of testosterone? I don't remember the exact terminology) out of the body. That said, I don't know that any of them have degrees in chemistry. I probably should have qualified all of this in my original post.

    As for myofibrilliar hypertrophy, I would welcome any information you have to give.

    Leave a comment:


  • Equipoise
    replied
    Originally posted by CNagy
    I haven't heard anything regarding onions. As far as I know they are tasty and healthy. But garlic... that's a killer... why do you think old italian men always have bitchtits? It's not mom's cookin... well it is, but it's not the meatballs.

    In all seriousness, though, as long as garlic isn't a main staple of your diet you should be okay. And then there are always anti-estrogen pills. Bodybuilders take them to keep steroids from giving them gynocomastia (due to aromatizing or metasticising or whatever the hell they do that causes them to become estrogen.)
    Actually most guineas are stocky and can smash planets.

    As for considering garlic or onions to be sources of increasing estrogen, that's just complete bullshit. Estrogen is needed to some degree and it has to be in balance with T levels. Anti-E pills... If you're refering to SERM's and not OTC stuff, there are a variety of these that have different properties. The goal when coming off of a cycle is to regulate the hormone levels, not directly suppress Estrogen. As direct suppression of E will in term cause T levels to dramatically drop. This also highly depends on the steroids taken during the cycle as to what PCT needs to be. Aromamtization is the process where the body converts T to E due to the lack of E in the body when it's trying to reach homeostasis. An overload of E is responsible for increased moodiness, aggression, etc. (Roid rage isn't directly related to T and there are studies to support that the rage is just the person's psychosomatic reaction to the Fallidror effect of taking something that is supposed to make you have rage, etc.) Enhance E suppression does very little to regulate the system in terms of bringing T levels back to norms effectively. IE if only an Anti-E is taken for PCT, then after the PCT the body will have abnormal levels of both T and E that will still cause Atrophy, Gynomastia, and a whole host of psychological effects.

    PL- Sarcoplasm is the fluid that rests between the outside of the fibers and the sack walls. It's directly responsible for fueling the muscles. When a muscles is introduced to activity causing it to need more nutrients for extended periods of time then there is an increased amount of Sarcoplasm. So Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy is the increasing of the fluid due to a lifting scheme that involves lesser weight for longer periods of time/higher repetions. I'll also explain myofibrilliar hypertrophy if you want.

    Miso's not so bad for lowering T levels, just avoid ingesting a lot of it.
    Last edited by Equipoise; 5/02/2006 6:29pm, .

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  • Rick the Ripper
    replied
    Originally posted by CNagy
    Whether or not it will flush mercury out of your system, garlic will raise your estrogen levels if you eat alot of it. Higher estrogen levels mean that you will put on more fat.

    Really?! Shit I never heard that one before, thanks for the tip. That's a new food on my list of estrogen producing foods to avoid, do you by any chance have any others of which I should be aware of? (I already know about tofu, meso and soy in general)

    Leave a comment:


  • Poop Loops
    replied
    Well, they're not nearly as big a part of my diet as onions are, but still...

    Leave a comment:


  • CNagy
    replied
    I haven't heard anything regarding onions. As far as I know they are tasty and healthy. But garlic... that's a killer... why do you think old italian men always have bitchtits? It's not mom's cookin... well it is, but it's not the meatballs.

    In all seriousness, though, as long as garlic isn't a main staple of your diet you should be okay. And then there are always anti-estrogen pills. Bodybuilders take them to keep steroids from giving them gynocomastia (due to aromatizing or metasticising or whatever the hell they do that causes them to become estrogen.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Poop Loops
    replied
    What about onions? Fuck. I love garlic and onions... :(

    Leave a comment:

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