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**M.C. Busman** · 8/22/2004 3:26pm,

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Frank Dux & Fakes in General FAQ, Part 2
by M.C. Busman

Q: Some of these articles and books are out of print. ~or~ I contacted the publisher and they don't have that article/book anymore. How can I obtain them?

A: My first recommendation is to write the publisher or author. Rainbow Publications, publisher of Black Belt magazine is usually very helpful, and will often provide you with an article or two if you write to them and enclose a SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope--your home address w/ enough postage for 10-15 photocopied pages). Most of the radio/online interviews can still be found online. The book Stolen Valor is available through Amazon.com.

Fortunately or unfortunately, The Secret Man has been out of print for several years. Regan Books, a division of Harper-Collins, declined to issue more copies due to several discrepencies stemming from emerging realities about Frank Dux's actual history vs. the classification of the book as non-fiction. You may be able to obtain a reading copy through interlibrary loan.

Failing this, these are sources I have in my file. If you've contacted a publisher for a specific article & they don't have it on file, I or another martial artist here may be able to send you a research-only copy. I really don't have the personal resources to snail-mail out a plethora of copies to 80+ people, so please utilize other resources (original authors/publishers!) first before contacting me for research-related copies.

Q: What about the charge that people who criticize others are hiding behind a keyboard?

A: The facts are the facts. That's what is so great about doing research and reaching conclusions. Well done research can exonerate the innocent, and expose charletans, liars, and con men for what they are. The facts don't care if one is a skilled world champion or a bespeckled weenie. The internet has merely levelled the playing field in making information more readily accessible to all. It is the men of dubious repute who have hidden behind lies and wishful thinking, and not the "messenger" who deserve your ultimate scrutiny. In other words, read the message, think critically, consider the csources and motives, and then draw your own conclusions. Don't be disuaded to turn a blind eye on the mere basis of loyalty or sympathy for someone who has lost what he never had to being with.

Q: There's a guy/gal who teaches karate/BJJ/ninjutsu/judo/kung fu/etc in my town who [you think is questionable for whatever reason]. What should I do/can you help?

A: I'm always happy to share what I have. However, you may be surprised to learn that this sort of research isn't my entire life (gasp!). Unfortunately, myself and most of the other faker-uncloseters (Samuel Browning, Don Cunningham, Jeff Boler, and a lot of other nice people who have used their own time/resources to help inform./warn others about certain unscrupulous folk) don't have time to fly/train/drive/bus around the country/world and research every martial artist there is a suspicion about. There are a lot (but thankfully far from a majority!) of martial artists who do everything from concoct splendidly fictitious histories for themselves to pad their resumees by adding a rank or two or claiming to have studied/met Bruce (the) Lee once. But don't be discouraged! DON'T Give Up! Don't let this opportunity pass you by--sieze this chance to learn some more and practice your own research & sleuthing skills. You might want to consider the following:

1. Pick your battles. Is is something you feel is worth researching and/or publicizing?

2. Is the claim so ridiculous, the average person with little/no real martial arts experience would disbelieve this individual?

3. Is the offense a violation of law, or something which would violate your/the common man's ethics?

4. Is there reliable evidence to support your theory/case?

5. Do you know how to present the facts without opening yourself to charges of libel? Hints: cite sources, get a decent guide to the research process, and make sure when you state an opinion you preface it by stating it is you opinion! Have a person with a background in research/libel law proofread your article. It is NOT a libel/slander to question someone's credentials or present actual valid reliable facts. Don't be FRIGHTENED or BULLIED into clamming up and running away by a confident con who simply threatens you with a lawsuit. If you act in good faith and can back up what you claim with facts and citeable sources, you'll be o.k..

Q: I made a mistake/found out I was wrong/discovered a guy I called a faker was authentic! What should I do?!!

A: Questioning someone's background is not wrong. If you've said/written something which you later find to be incorrect, present the accurate information. If you research someone and find out they're bona fide, share that information with the public as well. The facts are the facts and as any researcher knows, sometimes what we discover exceeds our suspicions. There is nothing wrong with being suspicious, but if you make a mistake, you need to right that wrong as soon as you become aware of it.. If a situation warrants, apologize directly. If a situation warrants, apoogize publically. If you've caused damage through your mistake, repair it. We humans make mistakes. Be courageous, accept the responsibility, if you screw up, make things right. Better yet, do the research before you make a direct accusation. The facts have got to come first. If you doubt a source, you can mention it, but voice your doubts as well.

Q: You're poo! I hate You! How dare you question my Sifu/Hanshi/Sensei/Soke/Daddy/Grandmaster/Kyoju Dairi/World Champion/10th dan/Civil War/Vietnam VeteranTeacher who taught Bruce (the) Lee everything he knew!

A: That first part wasn't a question, actually (more of an opinionated declaration). Hey, if I'm wrong, show me the facts. I will apologize. But I won't take just the word of any Sifu/Hanshi/Sensei/Soke/Daddy/Grandmaster/Kyoju Dairi/World Champion/10th dan/Civil War/Vietnam VeteranTeacher. Extraordinary claims do demand Extraordinary evidence. So if you tell me your G.M. was an 8-time bare knuckle death match CIA agent who beheaded errant child-molesting Yakuza Navy Seals by chewing their heads from their necks, I will ask you for some kind of documentation. For the World Champ stuff at least. I'm not a blank-eyed smiley sheep who is going to unthinkingly believe whatever I'm told.
You don't impress me that much.
Under that intimidating black gold-trimmed red-highlighted patch-covered heavyweight stonewashed Gi and 3-inch thick black/red belt with red cover and white-gold stripes with impressive embroidery lurks a flesh-and blood man like any other. You're not bullet proof, and you're not Zeus. If you want unquestioning followers, start your own cult like a normal narcissistic Guru. And if you're merely a defensive follower, get your own life.

Q: I've recently decided to...part from my Soke/Grandmaster after a number of years of study. I found out some things about his life/history which are just not true/ethically repulsive. I find that I really miss the practice, the group, the nice uniforms, the acknowledgement and cameraderie of the group. I feel like something is missing in my life now. Did I study all those years for nothing? Am I a total Loo-oo-ooser?

A: No. You've done a very courageous thing. The longer you're in a group that sates some real social need, the harder it is to leave. Just because you studied with a liar or faker doesn't mean every technical thing you learned is a complete loss. Let me suggest you find a legitimate teacher/expert to study with, and perhaps have this person assess your abilities and knowledge. Start by being honest with this teacher/expert about your past and experiences. You'll find that there are many good legitimate people who won't hold against you the fact that once, you were fooled. If anything, you will find people hold a lot of respect for someone who is trying to "go legit". Don't lose hope. You will make it through, and for the better.

~~~End~~~

**M.C. Busman** · 8/22/2004 3:34pm,

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A "Frank" Analysis of Frank Dux's Alleged Accomplishments Part I
by M.C. Busman

Frank Dux's claims were presented on his old website through a link from the CSU site. I don't know if the link still works, I will have to search for it. I did print it out several years ago, and am using that to consider some of this "Secret Man's" claims.

Alleged Accomplishment: 1975-1980 IFAA World Heavyweight Full Contact Kumite Champion"

Comment: Frank Dux actually names an organization that ran these supposed secret fights. IFAA stands for "International Fighting Arts Association", an org which Dux claims in his other writings has ancient origins. In The Secret Man, Dux claims that:

"After the outbreak of World War II, The Kokuryukai renamed the Parade of Death the Kumite (free sparring), and since 1950, the secret society's descendants have hosted the quasi-illegal international tournament every five years as a no-holds barred human cockfight. Its patrons, of course, tend to be fron the criminal element, and its participants enter only by invitation." (1996:250, paragraph 2)

No evidence of such an organization with ties to this historic Japanese group exist in the form of a martial arts tournament-promoting group. One would think that with so many men fighting in this "Secret" tournament (see numbers below) in several weight divisions (surely Dux's Heavyweight division was only one of at least 3 other divisions? Who was lightweight champ?), year after year, word would have gotten out. But nary another account of these fights exists--although several other martial artists (Irving Soto among them) have made claims modeled after Dux's which they can't back up either. A shame he didn't enter the open Kyokushinkai tournaments of that era (1970's through the 1980's)

Additionally, Dux claims to:
- Have the "most consecutive knockouts in a single tournament - 56"
Comments: Even if Dux was the only other competitor in his "Kumite" dvision that year, there would have been 57 men total (56 knocked out + Dux) competing in his "Heavyweight Full Contact Division" alone. And he would have had to knock every man out. How did all these guys, their trainers, coaches, girlfriends and assorted hangers-on blend in in the Bahamas without alerting authorities to their presence? How did Dux manage that, when most boxers and kickboxers who face well-trained opponents are usually pretty worn out after a single match? How do these numbers for one year affect his claim to have fought 329 matches as a secret Kumite fighter over the course of his secret undocumented career?

- be the "First kumite fighter to be undefeated with over 100 matches"
Comments: Even the Gracies lose now & then. Of course, their credited losses (and their numerous wins) are documented.

- "First Kumite fighter to exceed 300 matches"
Comments: Who was the first Kumite fighter to exceed 200, and how do people keep track of this stuff at secret events which are held year after year?

- Have a "Final Kumite record - 329 matches"
Comments: Who documented this record, and who were the matches against? Most full-contact fighters don't go over 50 matches in their lifetimes.

To return to Dux's allegation that he was undefeated in this IFAA "league" no-one's ever heard of, was he awarded more than the 1 trophy he showes off in the November 1980 issue of Black Belt? Did he ever recieve prize money? If so, it must have been substantial! With all the gambling he alleges went on, I hope he remembered to report his earnings to the IRS...

Unfortunately for martial arts hisorians, Frank Dux has never provided an iota of evidence that he fought in even a local no-contact tournament. There are no photographs, periodacle clippings, or reliable witness testimonies. Nor do the articles in Black Belt circa 1980 back up Dux's claims--they merely suggest that the writers and editors of that era weren't cautious about the materials they accepted for publication, or checking the background of men with unusual stories.

No other "secret" fighters from an organization called the IFAA have come forward to give their stories, despite the numbers of competitors Dux suggests, which imply that there should be a substantial number of these men out there. Dux is alone, a Secret Man of His Own Imagination. Perhaps that's because the real endeavors of true men like Andy Hug (Kyokushinkai, Full Contact & NHB), Rorion Gracie (Brazilian Jiujitsu, NHB), Hirokazu Kanazawa (JKA) cast such a shadow on the shallow dreams of the wannabe's of yesteryear.

Oh, yes. Dux also alleges that he was: "1975-1980 IFAA Free style Weapons/Forms Champion"

Outstanding, that a man can fight such brutal matches, never losing, could still have the grace and strength of a Flying Horse in something as artistic as Kata. I take it the Weapons/Forms competitions were as secret as the kumite? I wonder how the betting went. Why doesn't he have 3 big trophies like the one he kneels next to in his 1980 Black Belt article? It's a wonder he never entered into a U.S. tournament in forms at least. He could have cleaned up "pansies" like Jean Frenette, John Cheung, and Cynthia Rothrock.

No Joke, folks (except for the "pansies" comment). The kudos go to the people who fought the battle and won their acclaim honestly, not the pretenders who wish they'd been there.

Happy Saturday,

M.C. Busman

**M.C. Busman** · 8/22/2004 3:46pm,

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A "Frank" Analysis of Frank Dux's Alleged Accomplishments Part II, section "A"
by M.C. Busman

This article is a continuation of an examination of some of the claims made by Frank Dux, a man who has made a number of unusual claims over the years regarding his history and accomplishments. To read about Dux's alleged secret "Kumite" (fighting) claims, please see part I of this series. Part II will examine Dux's claims to have accomplished two specific feats in a 1993 demonstration in Paris.

Alleged Accomplishment: "1993 - Only martial artist to break two champagne bottles at varying heights with a single kick"

Alleged Accomplishment: "1993 - Only Martial artist to break Lexon [sic] Bulletproof glass window, barehanded". (from www-scf.usc.edu/~ninjitsu/shidoshi )

Comments: One of Frank's more recent claims to fame was duping the French language publication Bushido - Karate into inviting him to demonstrate at an event held at Bercy Stadium in Paris, France in 1993. Dux even made the cover of the magazine. It is safe to say that the French knew as little about Dux, and trusted him as freely as Black Belt magazine writers and editors had in 1980 when Dux was still claiming to be "decorated for-his blade fighting techniques in actual combat in Southeast Asia". (Dux,Blackbelt. 1980,October:34.)

During the 1993 demonstration, Dux performed a number of feats which dazzled the crowd and appeared to back up his claims as being a skilled and autentic martial arts "Hanshi". Thankfully, One of Dux's former students and a long time friend have come forward on different occasions to call several of his "feats" into question, and describe their role in witnessing or making his stunts look authentic.

While the issue of the French-language publication Bushido-Karate in which Dux appeared is not readily available to martial artists in the United States (and is presently over 10 years old as of this writing), Dux himself did us a favor by providing pictures of his Paris Demo in his questionable autobiography, The Secret Man. In the 16-page photo insert between pages 112 and 113 of this book, Dux includes 3 pictures which he claims show him shattering Bulletproof glass (Page 1, The Secret Man, photo insert). There is a picture of Dux sitting in a wide-kneed seiza while a chain of at least 13 people with their arms linked to one another try to pull him off balance through one Dux-ryu student holding Dux's forearm--a common trick utilizing physics and inefficiently arranged assistants. On page 2 of the photo insert, Dux is shown kicking two bottles, and at the bottom, two photos show dux smashing what appears to be a bottle of Jack Daniel's. But instead of verifying Dux's prowess, these photos in his own book are the very thing that make the testimony of a former friend and a former student credible. We should look at evidence available to determine if Frank Dux's claims are reasonable, or if there are reasons to doubt the validity of his claims.

During Dux's 1998 suit against actor Jean-Claude Van Damme, the defense (Van Damme's attorney) called and old friend of the self-appointed "Koga Yamabushi/Dux-Ryu Ninjitsu"[sic] master to testify:

"Calling Frank Dux a liar who "tries to get something for nothing," another defense witness, Richard Alexander, continued to erode the plaintiff's [Dux's] credibility.
"Richard Alexander, Dux's friend for 20 years, testified that the plaintiff's feat of breaking bullet-proof glass with a single punch was a hoax. According to Alexander, the bullet-proof glass was really Plexiglass that Dux had found. Alexander also described another allegedly staged stunt in which Dux shattered a candied glass bottle that appeared to be real glass.
"Alexander claimed that he contacted Van Damme's attorney, Martin Singer, after he saw Dux on Court TV lying on the stand. The witness said his last encounter with the plaintiff was pleasant but admitted that he once filed an unsuccessful suit against Dux. During Cross-examination, Alexander denied plaintiff attorney Steven Kramer's repeated accusations that Alexander stole a car he was supposed to purchase from Dux.
"Alexander's testimony attacked arguably the most important aspect of Dux's case--his veracity. The jury must believe Dux in order to give him a victory over Van Damme." (1998, November 3. Court TV report. see: http://www.courttv.com/archive/trial...am/110698.html )

The jury did, in fact, find against Dux and for the defendant in Dux V. Van Damme. Alexander's testimony regarding Dux's deceptiveness may have played a part in their decision.

A second man, long-time Dux-ryu Ninjitsu [sic] student David Richardson, also went public a few years ago with his account of Dux's bizzar behavior and deceptive tactics. Among other things, Richardson, an honorably discharged Marine and professional stage magician, further called into question Frank Dux's alleged feats of power at the Paris Demonstration in 1993:

"FACT 1. One particular situation stands out more than others in connection with Mr. Dux was during the time period he was preparing to go to Paris for a huge convention/demonstration. Myself and another student was brought in as consultants due to our extreme background in stage-magic. Here is a man who people in the martial arts community consider to be a living legend seeking advice from a yellow and orange belt student on how best to make it appear that he could break bullet-proof glass. That's right folks I was there when this facade was put together, behind the scenes if you will when the plexi-glass was prepared to look like real bullet resistant glass. This whole production took tape editing and acting, not unlike the magic show if you will, to convince the spectators that what they saw happen was real." ( http://web.archive.org/web/20021002...whathappen.html if nothing appears on this page, highlight the page with your cursor-- white print on white background)

If the testimony of Alexander and Richardson is not convincing enough alone, we have statements and photos from Dux's own book. On page 305 of The Secret Man, Dux tells us, "The Year 1993 had been wonderful.[...]I became the first person to break bulletproof glass barehanded." (1996)

~~~To be Continued Below~~~

[end Part II section "A"]

**M.C. Busman** · 8/22/2004 3:50pm,

This article may be transmitted & duplicated in its entirity for non-profit purposes. For more information, email mc_busman@Bigmailbox.net

A "Frank" Analysis of Frank Dux's Alleged Accomplishments Part II Section "B"
by M.C. Busman

Page 1 of the photo-insert in The Secret Man between pages 112 and 113 bottom left photo shows the alleged "bulletproof glass" in a wooden holder. On the transparent panel is a small impact mark which has been circled. Dux tells us this mark is a "9-mm-bullet hit". In the next column on the same page, two helpers brace the wooden support which clamps the alleged "bullet-proof glass" in place. In one picture Dux is about to punch, in the picture below he has punched through the clear panel.

There are two kinds of bulletproof glass which I know of. One kind is actual glass laminated and layered with plastic in between the glass layers. Each layer has a plastic film between each pane of glass to maintain its integrity. When hit with a round, it spreads the impact over a larger area than the point of impact. It shatters in a radial pattern from the point of impact, with multiple layers of glass shattering, stopping the bullet. It's often found in bank windows, some armored cars, etc., and is expensive. The other "bulletproof glass" isn't glass at all, but a shatter-resistant polycarbonate brand-named Lexan.

In his claims, Dux misspells it as "Lexon Bulletproof Glass". With the right thickness (generally at least 3/4"), Lexan can be an alternative to traditional bulletproof glass. When a round hits Lexan, it tends to somewhat melt around the impact due to the heat of the round (depending upon size of round, distance, weapon used to fire, etc.). Lexan distributes the impact over an area wider than the initial point of impact--same theory as bulletproof glass, or a bulletproof vest. There are different thicknesses of Lexan available depending upon the intended use. The thicker the substance, the more effective against shattering--just like "traditional" plexiglass. Where exposed to sunlight (as with an armored car), Lexan should be replaced once a year per manufacturer's suggestion (ultraviolet light casues it to degrade and it can shatter). Different thicknesses of Lexan are used in a wide variety of places--from bus shelters, hospitals, mental institutions, jails, gas station attendant booths, tool booth enclosures, etc. and newer armored cars.

The clear panel in Dux's book appears to be rather thin for traditional layer/laminated bulletproof glass. Furthermore, in Dux's photo the clear panel definately does not appear to be 3/4 inch thickness. Both Alexander and Richardson used the term "plexiglass" in their statements, contradicting Dux's claim in The Secret Man to have been "the first person to shatter bulletproof glass". Was it Lexan? Although we can't be certain, we can make an educated guess from what evidence is available--the believability of Dux vs. the believability of the two men who contradict his claims. Dux didn't bother to document his claim by having an expert verify what the panel was. Certainly someone who was planning on breaking a substance like Lexan would want the world to know he wasn't pulling a fast one with weaker plexiglass--and would go through the trouble of having someone qualified verify his claim to be using the correct substance of a thickness that would actually stop a round prior to a public demonstration.

Another consideration is that Lexan and Plexiglass can can crack around an impact, Lexan more so if it has been degraded by ultraviolet rays. In The Secret Man photo, there appear to be cracks radiating from the impact. Dux claimed that the circled impact in the clear panel was a "9-mm-bullet hit". I'd guess a .17 or .20 cal. pellet round, if that, because the panel doesn't look thick enough to withstand a greater impact. Not enough is known without having seen what was fired. With Dux's record, his word alone is not enough to go on.

Cracks WOULD weaken plexiglass or Lexan to the point where a blunt non-ballistic impact could cause it to shatter. It would not take a trained martial artist to shatter weakened material. Any healthy somewhat athletic person should probably be able to do this--but keep in mind that plexiglass can leave cut and scratch marks when it shatters. Plexiglass or Lexan? Two reliable witnesses in separate statements say the clear panel was indeed plexiglass.

Alexander's statement also mentions the shattering of two champagne bottles which he testifies were made out of "candied glass". Richardson supports this allegation with a separate statement of his own:

"FACT 2. The bottles that he used for his so-called breaks in his demo were "candy glass" used on movie sets and I remember him receiving them from one of the students in my group who moonlighted as a stuntman. Mean while all the time Mr. Dux thought it was all a big joke, to him it was o.k. to fake his martial arts abilities, after all he was the great "Frank Dux". Why would I continue to train in an environment surrounded by deceit and illusion.[....]" ( http://web.archive.org/web/20021002...whathappen.html if nothing appears on this page, highlight the page with your cursor-- white print on white background.)

Let's take a look at Frank's book again. On page 2 of the photo insert between pages 112 and 113 of The Secret Man, the top photograph appears to show Frank Dux preparing to kick what could be two champagne bottles. The larger picture underneath shows the bottles shattering--indeed, they don't just shatter, they appear to turn to powder--chunks of the "glass" fly through the air leaving powder trails, something I've never seen real bottle glass do from an impact. The bottom two photos show Dux apparently using a hammerfist to pulverize what appears to be a Jack Daniel's whisky bottle. This bottle also powders, instead of shattering. One can even see pieces of the apparent whisky bottle trailing powder behind as they fly from the impact--something glass does not do.

Candy glass on the other hand, does powder when impacted in a certain way--it is after all, made from finely ground confectioner's sugar. This is VERY apparent in the photos which Dux was nice enough to provide himself.

Did Frank Dux shatter bulletproof glass or break real glass bottles at the 1993 Paris demo? The evidence points to "no". I'm inclined to believe Alexander and Richardson, even if they had fallen away from Dux, because of the fact that not a single claim by Dux (military, martial arts/ninjutsu, secret op, etc) has been shown sound since he first emerged onto the public scene in 1980 with his claims about having fought in Southeast Asia, winning secret "Kumite" tournaments, and the like. I am also inclined to believe what I can see in the Pictures provided in Dux's own book.

Over time, when threatened by the facts, Frank Dux has a tendancy to change his story and deny he ever made the claims despite the fact that many of them were documented by reliable sources. Over a period of 24 years, Frank Dux has not shown himself to be reliable in matters relating to his own history and accomplishments. He has yet to present any convincing evidence of real accomplishments to the world. I do not find his claims concerning Paris 1993 believable.

[End, Part II sections B]

**Antagony** · 8/22/2004 4:02pm,

Nice to have this all in one place!

**Sam Browning** · 8/22/2004 8:29pm,

Nice, with over a 20 year career of B.S. behind him, no wonder people like M.C. have to specialize in "Duxology"

**Wounded Ronin** · 8/23/2004 5:23pm,

Kudos to the author.

**jkdbuck76** · 8/23/2004 8:51pm,

Bring him down! Kill whitey!!

**Kidnemo** · 8/24/2004 11:10am,

Originally posted by Wounded Ronin
Kudos to the author.

Indeed. Very nice.

**katana** · 8/24/2004 10:00pm,

Lexan Bullet Resistant Glass

Great article. Just to add to your comments on Lexan, here is my opinion:

I used to apply shatter proof glazings to windows as part of my job and did installations that involved Lexan windows to prevent storefront smash and grab attacks. We also did installations to protect homes and businesses from burglary at window locations that were poorly protected and couldn't use window bars for aesthetic reasons. I can say without any doubt that there is simply no way you could shatter a piece of bullet-reisistant Lexan material with your bare hands. I don't even think it can be done with 1/4" thick pieces of the material that we installed as window replacements. Those windows could resist rocks, bricks, chains, baseball bats, and all manner of other hand-wielded blunt objects you can think of (and believe me we tried it all to test the stuff). A fist against that material would do nothing at all.

Going further, a friend of mine worked in a building where they were closing a bank. He mentioned to me that they were throwing out sheets of bullet-resistant Lexan used in the bank lobby (about 1" thick). If you know how very expensive Lexan is, especially at thicknesses to stop a bullet, you understand that this is a really big deal. So he picked a few pieces about 2x2 ft. in size. We took these sheets out onto a farm and performed some tests with our own firearms. The results:

A .22 caliber rifle left small dents in the material with no cracking visible to the human eye.

A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with 00 Buckshot left small dents in the material with no cracking visible.

A 9mm pistol left a dent in the material with a few very small spider cracks at point of impact. The 2x2 sheets could take numerous 9mm shots with no significant cracking though.

A .44 Magnum pistol cracked the material significantly, but did not penetrate. Again multiple shots were fired and none penetrated.

A 12 gauge shotgun loaded with slugs significantly cracked the material, but again penetration did not occur.

A .30-06 hunting rifle penetrated the material, however cracking was still very well contained. The bullet's velocity was obviously affected, but we could not recover the projectile to assess what happened.

In summary: Lexan is amazing. If someone is wielding a standard pistol caliber or shotgun in a bank I'd feel very safe standing behind this stuff.

So basically there is simply no possible way that someone is going to break Lexan with their bare hands. I could possibly see it done on regular (thin) Plexiglas simply because it is relatively brittle, but Lexan? In my opinion a 12 Gauge shotgun loaded with slugs couldn't do it and a .44 Magnum couldn't do it. So unless you hit harder than those, you aren't going to break it.

**Wounded Ronin** · 8/25/2004 8:38am,

So, I guess the moral is if you're gonna rob a bank you'd better use .30-.06.

**Sam Browning** · 8/26/2004 6:48pm,

Kanata, out of curiousity how far away were you guys from the Lexan when you were firing at it?

**Deadpan Scientist** · 8/26/2004 7:51pm,

Run that through spell check and then repost it.

**katana** · 8/26/2004 11:51pm,

Originally posted by Samuel Browning
Kanata, out of curiousity how far away were you guys from the Lexan when you were firing at it?

We were probably about 20-30 ft. back for most of it. Being any closer probably wouldn't contribute that much to the outcome.

We erected a makeshift barrier to crouch behind while doing this because we didn't know what would happen (ricochet, flying fragments, etc.). Also I should add that while we supported the Lexan as best we could in the field, it was not in a proper mounting as required by the manufacturer for full protection. Again though, I highly doubt anyone is breaking bullet-resistant Lexan with their bare hands.

Here is a great video from GE's Lexan Polymer group showing you exactly what this stuff is capable of withstanding (gunshots, axes, etc.):

http://www.insulgard.com/Media/Insulgard.mpg