Specialized styles or all encompassing system?

[Omega Supreme]

Ironically this was a discussion that was spawned in the TMA vs MMA thread.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=124791

As discussed between Mike123 and myself I disagree that, and I'm paraphrasing here, that styles need to be exclusive of each other so that they can be better skilled. Now my argument is geared more towards my experience in Kung-fu, B. Jiu Jitsu, and old school Judo. Each of which attempt be fairly encompassing in it's "style" but specializing in certain skill sets. My second argument goes to boxing whose skill set is excellent in itself but would fall to the other systems in overall combat. In other words how would a style fair if all things being the same 'x' was added?

[gregaquaman]

How do you know you are specialising?

Kung fu punch and kick so the specialise in what striking.

Mma punch kick and grapple so the specialise in unarmed fighting.

I think diversity is the better definition.

[Scott Larson]

There are plenty of styles that account for all phases of combat. Its just a matter of priority and time spent on each area. Humans live only so long.

[Holy Moment]

Specialization (Collectively, over a period of generations) might allow for a level of refinement in a particular skill that you wouldn't get training multiple categories of techniques. However, it also leads to the development of sport-specific strategies and techniques that aren't really applicable to anything else.

[Raycetpfl]

There are plenty of styles that account for all phases of combat. Its just a matter of priority and time spent on each area. Humans live only so long.

This is my thought on the matter. I can only train so many hours.if Training 10,000 hours makes you an expert in something, how much time do you have to become an expert in multiple things?
If you are going off to war with primitive weapons do you wanna be handed a Swiss army knife (under 10,000 hours in anyone thing)for your single weapon? It can do everything but is great at nothing, or would you prefer a Katana? It does one thing extremely well.
I have chosen bjj with a touch of striking. A Katana with a corkscrew ,if you will.
If I had the time I would love to have Kru level knowledge of Muay Thai ,but I dont. So I am a Bjj guy that has about 4 or five good striking combinations.
What would happen if I stand up with a golden gloves champ my size? Probably not good things for me.
I picked bjj because I feel it's the sharpest single style. If I had more hours in the day I would do ,free style wrestling, boxing ,Muay thai, kendo,kali and maybe mix in some krotty (Shotokan and kykoshin(sp?) ). However i don't ,so i grapple.

[Scott Larson]

Makes sense.

Seems like the more important thing is how to deal with your opponents tools, than learning how to use them. You don't have to be as skilled as a Muay Thai Kru to defeat him, you just have to stop him from doing the things that he's better at than you. You see this all the time in combat sports of any kind. Concepts are more important than techniques anyway.

[ChenPengFi]

Don't put too much weight in Gladwell's premise.

[Raycetpfl]

Specialization (Collectively, over a period of generations) might allow for a level of refinement in a particular skill that you wouldn't get training multiple categories of techniques. However, it also leads to the development of sport-specific strategies and techniques that aren't really applicable to anything else.

Like Tae Kwon do Olympic athletes fighting standing sideways with their hands at their sides? Not a whole of mystery in their game.

[mike321]

I enjoy watching MMA above all other fighting sports. No specialized style artists can do well today without intense cross training. However, the top competitors still seem to come from high level, more specialized backgrounds. I thought by now top competitors would all grow up with mma. This is what makes me think there is an inherent advantage to a specialized system.

[Wherestehbeer]

The thing I always see with this particular debate, is that it is always from the perspective of a combat sport mind set vs a school trained mind set. What do you mean by diversity? In mma, diversity means you know a straight main hand punch and a lead hook, a high roundhouse and a leg kick, a hip toss and double leg, an armbar and a heel hook, and rear naked and a triangle. You can do that in MMA and you're a martial genius. Yes I'm exaggerating, but you know what I'm talking about here. In mma if you can do a handful of things really well, you have a broad skill set.

In the school mind set, going solid in one style is best because you have a diverse range within that technique. If you have a strike/throw/sub for every situation you're faced with,
you're still a diverse fighter. Which brings back my question of what you mean by diversity.

Another thing is, nearly every style has a range of skills. Western Boxing as a style, not the competitive sport, has incredible range. Muay Boran is much more diverse than it's competitive sport. Which makes me ask, what you mean by better? Better as a bar fighter, competitor in a sport, martial artist?

Personally, I think it's best to focus your skills where you're comfortable. You may be built for and better at striking than grappling, but if you're not comfortable as a striker it's not your best option to focus there. If you're more comfortable transitioning than staying static multiple styles is your calling. Comfort breeds confidence, and both are important in any answer to that last question above.

[frenchie88]

While versatility is my objective in all my pursuits, regarding martial arts, I feel it is best to become at least proficient in the style that best suits you personally, then fill in your gaps with supplementary arts so that you can prevent your opponent from doing what he is best at while imposing upon him your primary skills.

[1point2]

My preference in my own life and philosophically for all combat sports and maybe all things is to oscillate between the broad scope (in this case, fighting) and the narrow scope (e.g. just boxing). This adds perspective while in both situations. (And personally, I like the variety and would get bored specializing in anything, including not specializing!) Work on general problems out in the open with a lot of partners, then go into a hole with only like-minded people and specialize in one little thing, then bring that skill back to the larger community, ad infinitum.

However, if one's goal is not fighting skill, then specialize to your heart's content. I think that a lot of the time we forget that a lot of people don't wrestle, do BJJ, box, or whatever in order to learn to fight. It's hard for me to comprehend, but it's true.

[mike321]

So a related question: what strategies are used to develop effective skills in a diverse art? Do you have grappling days and striking days? I have never been to a mma class. I have no idea.

[The Cap]

Don't put too much weight in Gladwell's premise.

Yeah, the man's got more theories than evidence*. What if varying your practice focus can bring more benefit to your one main goal than just zeroing in on it to stagnation? I found this was true growing up with music, in that if some technique gave me trouble leaving it behind to focus on something very different allowed me to come back later and nail the first issue very quickly. Was I maybe letting that part of the brain recover from exhaustion while still getting practising done, like a musical superset? I have no idea.

I should note that this was combined with plenty of intense, focused drilling too. You need at least that to start getting good, but maybe crosstraining is of a benefit when added on top of that?



*Just like me.

[NeilG]

In the school mind set, going solid in one style is best because you have a diverse range within that technique. If you have a strike/throw/sub for every situation you're faced with, you're still a diverse fighter.

Except, not so much in reality. Take judo: for throwing, it's an exceedingly broad curriculum so one would assume that to be good you would be able to use whatever is appropriate for the situation. In reality, everyone zeroes in on a handful of techniques and learns to apply that small subset really well. You can buy whole books on single techniques, wherein they discuss the various entries, how to use them in combination, as counters, etc. If you've got 2 forward throws and 2 backward throws and can make them work, you are pretty much good to go from a competition standpoint. Some people make a career out of a single throw.