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Where is the line for when Bullshido becomes Fraud?

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    Where is the line for when Bullshido becomes Fraud?

    Ok, before I begin, yes this is kinda personal. Yes, I am angry. But, this is a serious question.

    How do we define "fraud?"

    If someone trains in a place like Juko-lie, and they get their 10th dan or I guess he gives out 12th dans too, whatever, he does have the paper. Does that make them a fraud, or something else?

    I want to "out" a major mess here in Michigan, but I need to understand terms before I do.

    IMNTBHO, if someone claims Judo rank they got from Juko-lie, they have to know they are full of crap, and ergo are a fraud. How do you guys see it?

    Background: Friend of mine, legit bad man, is at a gun show. Guy is there selling training tapes and pushing his "jujitsu" lessons. Mind you I promoted this guy to Shodan about 18 years ago, then then took off with Juko-lie and I haven't heard from him again.

    He tells my friend he is a 10th dan, which means he outranks me, and, quote "Well Mark is a sport Judo guy, he really doesn't know that much about jujitsu." WTF!!! Anything this guy knows I taught him, of course my friend says "Well, you got your black belt from him so what does that say about you?"

    So, what is a fraud?
    "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

    #2
    Starting and training in Juko-lie and eventually obtaining a high rank, later opening his own school: Not fraud, but major major Bullshido.

    Not training at all or minimal training and claiming complete mastery: Fraud.
    "The pedant is he who finds it impossible to read criticism of himself without immediately reaching for his pen and replying to the effect that the accusation is a gross insult to his person. He is, in effect, a man unable to laugh at himself."Sigmund Freud, The Ego and the Id.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
      How do we define "fraud?"

      If someone trains in a place like Juko-lie, and they get their 10th dan or I guess he gives out 12th dans too, whatever, he does have the paper. Does that make them a fraud, or something else?

      Mind you I promoted this guy to Shodan about 18 years ago, then then took off with Juko-lie.

      He tells my friend he is a 10th dan, which means he outranks me, and, quote "Well Mark is a sport Judo guy, he really doesn't know that much about jujitsu." WTF!!! Anything this guy knows I taught him, of course my friend says "Well, you got your black belt from him so what does that say about you?"

      So, what is a fraud?

      If I understand correctly; 18 years ago you awarded him shodan, he went with a thing called Juko-lie, He has been awarded a 10th dan in Juko-lie, he has the certificate in Juko-lie, (is the juko-lie a jujitsu thing?), he disrespected you.

      Answer is gong-sau.

      Not fraud in Juko-lie.

      Is he claiming BB in jits or something else?

      edit: danniboi7 beat me to the post

      Comment


        #4
        If the man seriously threw himself into this Juko-lie thing after he left you and legitimately (as far as he's concerned) worked his way up to 10th Dan, then I wouldn't say that it's fraud, as such.

        The guy may actually think that he has the real deadly and has now far, far surpassed his former teacher...

        If the above is indeed the case - and his skills turn out *not* to be at the level you'd expect of a 10th Dan, then this makes him guilty of spending 18 years of his life training in a MA that teaches inferior budo and promotes people too quickly.
        Last edited by Larus marinus; 11/03/2009 3:59pm, .

        Comment


          #5
          is he claiming a 10th dan in juko-kai or in judo (certified *by* juko-kai)???

          if i have my facts straight, the answer to that question is at the heart of the matter.
          "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
          "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
          "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
          "Seriously, who gives a fuck what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj

          Comment


            #6
            Well, he is claiming ranks in several arts, all with Juko-kai (which I call Juko-lie look them up here) papers.

            Jujitsu - 10th dan; Traditional Judo - I think 7th or 8th dan.

            But, and this is key, there is no training. You go to a clinic once a year and learn a few bull crap moves; but you pay for your promotions along the way. There are no "secret temple sessions" where the real deadly is taught. People just do their own thing, from book or video, and get ranked as they pay for it.

            And PHD's etc.

            Juko Kai has been exposed here, my point is this butt clown KNOWS he is full of crap and I could hand him his head anytime I wish... but it seems more Bullshido than Fraud; save in HIS mind.
            "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

            Comment


              #7
              Mr. Tripp-

              You've done your due diligence here. You've outed him and his organization in full detail to an organization (us) that legitimately cares about fraud & legitimacy in martial arts. Those that don't care about actually learning to fight will ignore what you have already said and anything you might eventually say. Those who do care have already heard you out, or will eventually find your posts.

              The people he trains won't learn anything. The people you train will become badasses. There's not much more you can do and you should sleep well at night knowing that.

              Rudy Reyes > Bear Grylls

              Comment


                #8
                I am not a lawyer, but IMHO...

                If he mis-represents himself regarding a rank which he knows he didn't earn and uses said rank for personal gain, then he is a fraud.

                If he thinks he earned a rank, but was deceived and really didn't,
                OR he earned a rank in a useless art, but teaches it though it is effective,
                OR earned an honorary rank but doesn't teach that style and only uses it to pad his resume,
                OR brags about his fake rank but doesn't use it for personal gain,

                then he is guilty of bullshido.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Kinda how I see it too. Rod is the fraud. Most of the people under him are bullshido.

                  I wanted some other voices; well other than the usual ones in my head, to make sure I was on the right path.
                  "Out of every hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back." -- Hericletus, circa 500 BC

                  Comment


                    #10
                    The legal definition of fraud is well-summarized on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraud


                    It has a number of elements to it, some of which are hard to prove. I tend to avoid the term in investigation writeups, preferring instead to refer to falsehoods or statements not supported by the evidence available to the investigation.

                    I)f you're dealing with someone litigious, tread carefully when you use that word.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Can't fraud be seen as a displacement of the worth of a style? If you are taught really good MT or BJJ and the teacher says that you'll do just fine in MMA, since the striking/grappling game is so good, then it's fraud.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Well, unless you can prove that this Juko-lie is a fraud (no matter that we all know it's bullshido / mcdojo organization), but legally prove that it's a fraud, then your ex-student's rank can't be fraud, just simple bullshido... unfortunately for all the unlucky that his classes attract...

                        but knowing that... if people are interested enough to learn a martial art sooner or later they are going to discover the true depths of their teachers knowledge, and see his lessons in true light...

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Nightwonder View Post
                          Well, unless you can prove that this Juko-lie is a fraud (no matter that we all know it's bullshido / mcdojo organization), but legally prove that it's a fraud, then your ex-student's rank can't be fraud, just simple bullshido... unfortunately for all the unlucky that his classes attract...

                          but knowing that... if people are interested enough to learn a martial art sooner or later they are going to discover the true depths of their teachers knowledge, and see his lessons in true light...
                          He's already done that. Search for Juko Kai.

                          Juko-lie is his romanisation of said "art":wtfgif9fr
                          I feel like you eye-bawlin' me, dawg!

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Mtripp View Post
                            Well, he is claiming ranks in several arts, all with Juko-kai (which I call Juko-lie look them up here) papers.
                            and this first:
                            what rank is he claiming in Juko-kai/lie?
                            You stated HE, the principal of this discussion is AWARDED 10th IN Juko-kai/lie. Correct?
                            So this would make him, the principal 10th Dan, correct?

                            10th Dan in Juko-kai/lie =/= to 10th Dan in, say USJA/USJF, USJI, correct?

                            This, I don't know what you can do about, other then assist in some manner of article for the website detailing what exactly Juko-kai/lie training is, what it entails and the potential shortcomings of the style for someone whom is wishing to learn Judo.

                            Within that system, if He, the principal, has performed all the actions necessary of receiving that grading, then really there isn't much that can be done except detailing WHAT the actions are in respect to the grading.

                            An article fully fleshing out the details of the differences would help the ignorant consumer.

                            Any other suggestions are appreciated here.

                            Jujitsu - 10th dan;
                            Is this verified/verifiable?
                            Under which organization and from whom, where and when.
                            THIS is something that is actionable, if he isn't being forthright about all the details.

                            Traditional Judo - I think 7th or 8th dan.
                            Again, see above.
                            You stated YOU awarded him, the principal, his Shodan over 18 yrs. ago, correct?
                            Then finding out under which organization and from whom, where and when he ascended to nana/hachidan should be obtainable and, if not, actionable.

                            But, and this is key, there is no training. You go to a clinic once a year and learn a few bull crap moves; but you pay for your promotions along the way. There are no "secret temple sessions" where the real deadly is taught. People just do their own thing, from book or video, and get ranked as they pay for it.
                            Again, detailing this in some manner of detailed article may help.

                            And PHD's etc.
                            From accredited Universities OR from Juko-kai/lie

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Just tell him to go to hell Mark. We all know that he is full of shit and in the back of his mind so does he.

                              The next time someone says they do traditional Judo I want to just skull drag them on the spot. That bullshit of we don't follow the rules and what you do is a sport is the biggest cop out for men who have a vagina.

                              He got his shodan in Judo and then went on to do that combat ki shit. Give him the finger and a box of tampons and tell him to shove both of them in his vag and come do some randori.
                              Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.

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