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Richard Dimitri and "The Shredder™" ?

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  • rw4th
    replied
    Bjorn: sign up for real classes with a real instructor and attend them a regular basis. Supplement that with Senshido sessions with anybody who's interested. Stop regurgitating this "I spar with my buds so I know shit" stuff. You NEED competent instruction under a competent instructor, period

    As for your videos, the only person who cares is you.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bjorn
    replied
    Originally posted by Tom Kagan
    Using this logic, friends don't grab other friends balls, either .... unless you're referring to a different kind of friend. :smile:

    I think you need more friends who *will* RNC you - especially if you start wasting time fumbling around for their crotch when he's not leaking that opportunity within the 3 seconds you have to defendi 'teh r3al' RNC.

    Regardless of the details, if this is now the whole story, it was a bit disingenuous of you to bring it up as some evidence of training effectiveness, don't you think?



    I have not seen the DVDs to which you refer so I can't comment on them. However, remember a funny comment relayed to me by a friend. The comment was made by the coach at a wrestling club in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. When one of the wrestlers objected because it was illegal to grab the jawline the way the coach was showing to cause more pain, the coach replied: "He's sure as hell going to do it to you and you can't expect the ref to see everything. It's just part of the sport." Wrestlers love to rip - sometimes to shreds. :smile:



    Unfortunately, not in the foreseeable future. When/if that changes, I'll be sure to let you know.
    It was a example of me acting rather calmly to a potentially dangerous threat since I knew it had to be a friend of mine. I listed it as part of several examples in response to soundless regarding attacking first and the legal aspect of self defence.

    I was by no means listing it up as some evidence of my training effectiveness. Had you put it in context to the rest of my post you would possibly have picked up on this.

    I have rolled allot with my friends. I have RNC my friends, they have RNC me. We do not train to grab balls to escape (I did this because I knew I was in no real danger and because I knew it was my friend...and no, we do not go around grabbing each others balls:happy6: ).

    My experience and training in grappling stems from practice and rolling with my brown belt judo friend, my friends (and other members) that train shoot fighting under a certified instructor of shooters international here in Bodo (Rune Lind who is also the Norwegian chief of IKMF) and a two day BJJ-seminar with Marcel Yogi.

    Not saying this makes me a excellent grappler, just trying to tell you that you should stop making asumtions about my abilities to apply or defend against said technique without knowledge about my training.

    I will surely film some of our grappling sessions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Kagan
    replied
    Originally posted by Bjorn
    We are friends... Friends do not choke each other out when out on town (at least mine does not). Trust me, my friend knows how to RNC...
    Using this logic, friends don't grab other friends balls, either .... unless you're referring to a different kind of friend. :smile:

    I think you need more friends who *will* RNC you - especially if you start wasting time fumbling around for their crotch when he's not leaking that opportunity within the 3 seconds you have to defendi 'teh r3al' RNC.

    Regardless of the details, if this is now the whole story, it was a bit disingenuous of you to bring it up as some evidence of training effectiveness, don't you think?

    Originally posted by Bjorn
    I have heard about ripping (got some DVDs on it by Tony Ceccine)...Looks very painful!
    I have not seen the DVDs to which you refer so I can't comment on them. However, remember a funny comment relayed to me by a friend. The comment was made by the coach at a wrestling club in Sheepshead Bay, Brooklyn. When one of the wrestlers objected because it was illegal to grab the jawline the way the coach was showing to cause more pain, the coach replied: "He's sure as hell going to do it to you and you can't expect the ref to see everything. It's just part of the sport." Wrestlers love to rip - sometimes to shreds. :smile:

    Originally posted by Bjorn
    You plan on coming over to Norway?
    Unfortunately, not in the foreseeable future. When/if that changes, I'll be sure to let you know.

    Leave a comment:


  • soundless
    replied
    Originally posted by Tom Kagan
    ripping, but also practice it from time to time within the context of their own training of what they consider important.

    It might be enlightening for you to spend some time learning what is "Combat Sambo" - the style soundless lists as his own. While I don't know him, who he studies with (specifically), or what level he's at, I think you'll be quite surprised at what Combat Sambo encompasses without adding a trademark symbol when he rips and gets ripped in training or for the knifework.

    not that it particularly matters but but my instructor was trained by an olympic judo guy from britain... i can't quite remember his name but ill edit this once i remember, and sambo by a man who attended sambo 70 and im actually ranked under sambo steves american sambo association. So I'd like to think my training is pretty good lol. But hey you live in new york so if he comes down we can all meet up which would prolly be pretty fun.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bjorn
    replied
    Originally posted by Tom Kagan
    ripping, but also practice it from time to time within the context of their own training of what they consider important.

    It might be enlightening for you to spend some time learning what is "Combat Sambo" - the style soundless lists as his own. While I don't know him, who he studies with (specifically), or what level he's at, I think you'll be quite surprised at what Combat Sambo encompasses without adding a trademark symbol when he rips and gets ripped in training or for the knifework.
    We are friends... Friends do not choke each other out when out on town (at least mine does not). Trust me, my friend knows how to RNC...

    Off topic but still; I squeezed in some pad work and submission wrestling this evening, very short workout since we came late to the gym. It became even more apparent that I need to start doing some serious conditioning... I was gassed after only a few minutes of pad work and a few minutes of grappling.. Managed to tap out my partner with a RNC tho..;) He got me with a foot-lock. Have ordered the books of Ross Enamait and will do some serious conditioning the next couple of months.

    I have heard about ripping (got some DVDs on it by Tony Ceccine)...Looks very painful!

    Sure man! Would be cool to meet up and do some work! You plan on coming over to Norway?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Kagan
    replied
    Originally posted by Bjorn
    I have been RNC from behind while out on the town by one of my friends (the muai thai guy)..He put it on and started back peddaling real fast to get me off balance, I reach behind my back and grabbed his nuts, held on and squeezed a little harder since he did not let go right away...he let go then... I did not go apeshit and went for his eyes and throught after he let go... I knew it most likely was a friend of mine since they know I train in self defence and find it funny to "test" me when I am off guard..
    ripping, but also practice it from time to time within the context of their own training of what they consider important.

    It might be enlightening for you to spend some time learning what is "Combat Sambo" - the style soundless lists as his own. While I don't know him, who he studies with (specifically), or what level he's at, I think you'll be quite surprised at what Combat Sambo encompasses without adding a trademark symbol when he rips and gets ripped in training or for the knifework.

    Leave a comment:


  • soundless
    replied
    Im actually in the north east of america, a couple hours away from the canadian border, but if you're in eastern canada you should take a trip down so you can check the states out.
    rack up some more posts on here so we can PM when your visiting canada.

    rw4th thanks for your post, I think you have a very good grasp of what i'm talking about and you answered most of my thought process in one shot.

    This thread has gone in circles, more or less everything has been adressed multiple times, so for the time being this thread should be left to fade away once more.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bjorn
    replied
    Originally posted by soundless
    to be honest i just tend to come off as a prick online 4/5 times, but it has more to do with my sense of humor not be translated well into text.
    Regardless, I'd like to try and just point out the issues i've seen with the system, and hopefully it will assist in your training and perhaps help you understand what some of us see.

    1.If you place your hand in the persons face, or try to, you open yourself to several fight ending techniques, the arm bar is the most obvious example and whether you knew it or not it can be done standing about 12 different ways, and each of them is aggravatingly simple to do. Most mma programs have banned standing joint locks for this reason.

    2.you open up one of the rare opportunities a person can have to use... dare i say it?... AIKIDO wrist locks... oh man a mod is gonna come zap me for that lol. And several fun shoulder locks that end up with you on the ground. Not somewhere you wanna be in a fight

    3.When i say clich i mean the muay thai clinch, the wrestler clinch is alright for some things, but the muaythai clinch is downright brutal, please refer to anderson silva vs rich franklin 1 and 2. The problem is most fighters train with this as their main clinch and its such a simple thing that even a drunk may accidentally "discover" it. and sadly this clinch leads to knees... lots and lots and lots of knees. painful knees... ok i think i made my point about the knees. but the problem comes in that in a muaythai clinch you cannot manuveur your hands into your opponents face and if you can you most likely will have opened yourself up to more knees or a painful takedown... which of course you dont want happening on gravel or concrete or anything like that.

    my last immediate concern is with the prey vs predator psychology you mentioned. In most instances you should not be the one to throw the first punch... legally anyways, often a fight is not fatal but ends with some injuries, if you attack someones face in this instance you may in fact piss them off more and the fight may go further then it would have originally. In demitris videos he criticized moving away from knife strikes and encouraged the person to rush in, i will tell you right now that mind set is extremely dangerous. We do knife sparring and you dont make big sweeping slashes, there is almost no way to move in, and the few times people are able to make it in without getting stabbed in ends up in an incredibly dangerous clinch where the knife is often right near the kidneys. Why did i mention the knife fighting? well simply put i think it shows a mental concept, demitri is attempting to teach people to move in in in for an attack when it should be you attack and then run the fuck away [i sure as hell would at the first chance].

    So i read one of your earlier posts you said you were visiting canada? may i ask which part? if its in the east id encourage you to visit, id be happy to demonstrate my points and share information with you and vice versa.
    Sorry for missing your post. People on this forum seem to be like white on rice in regards to senshido...:)

    Anyway;

    1. You do not just place your hand in someones face, you hold on with a overhook, underhook, neck controll, hair or by his hear, tearing HARD at his face. For the drills we obviously just place our hands there since trainig partners is quite hard to come by.. I would think that the last thing someone would think about while beeing shredded was to do a standing armbar.

    By the way, if I might add, the reason we look like we do while face grappling is because we are both going after two goals; 1. to keep your hand in your opponets face at all times, 2. to keep your opponent from doing the same to you.

    We were not trying to look good or follow a pattern, we were just working with the drill. When you try to hold your hand in your opponets face while at the same time try to not let him do the same you will also look like that. As for me training wrong, how could I be? We were testing a drill where the purpose of the drill was to develop better footwork, anchor and tactile sensitivity. (This explanation was more for HAPKO3).

    2. Same thing here, the only thing you will do while beeing shredded is trying to disengage..not applying wrist locks or shoulder locks. When I go to Canada I hope that we can meet. I will for sure let you try both armbars, wristlocks, shoulder locks or thai knees while I am shredding you. If you suceed with any of that I will ask you to teach me those locks and give you some serious cred. (If you live in Canada, why not check out the senshido head quarter? I am sure they would be more then willing to explain their concepts to you if you are interessted?).

    3. Regarding the thai clinch, I will try this. I have a friend that have trained muai thai in Thailand and I am sure he knows this clinch. Will film it, of course. He just had surgery in his abdominom so it will be a while before we can train but I promise I will test it out.

    Richard Dimitri covers knife issues in debth in his DVDs; "On the cutting edge", and; "On the cutting edge 2". Your asumtions about his teachings regarding knife defence etc is wrong. I am guessing that you came to that conclution from only watching the youtube clips? You should try to find those two DVDs as I am 100% sure that you will realise that your asumtions are wrong.

    Regarding the legal aspect. Shredding is just a small piece of the puzzle. It is not like I am training to shredd anyone that attacks me etc... Like I mentioned in my post on page.18; I have only been in a "fight" once in my 27 years on this earth. I am a very calm guy. I have a 3 year old son and a wonderful fiancee, I do not go bar-hopping each weekend or look for fights. I would only shredd someone if it was my very last option.. I have no romantic ideas about voilence or self defence.

    I have been RNC from behind while out on the town by one of my friends (the muai thai guy)..He put it on and started back peddaling real fast to get me off balance, I reach behind my back and grabbed his nuts, held on and squeezed a little harder since he did not let go right away...he let go then... I did not go apeshit and went for his eyes and throught after he let go... I knew it most likely was a friend of mine since they know I train in self defence and find it funny to "test" me when I am off guard..

    Another time I suddenly got put in a classical head lock. I did not tilt for the same reason, it just had to be a friend of mine since I never felt much pressure..

    Yet another time I got attacked by a girl in the backseat of a car after beeing a bit rude to her (what can I say..I was young and drunk..:)...she suddenly reached over (we were three people in the back seat, her on the far left, me on the far right) and tried to punch me several times...somehow I got a hold of her hand and insinctively put her in a wristlock while controlling her elbow (how is beyond me...I have never practiced this and it happened instantly). I just held it till she had calmed down.

    My point is that shredding is just a tool among all the other tools in senshido and it is for self defence. There is no need to "defend" against drunks...all it takes is some social skills and the ability to put your ego away for a short while...

    Finally, as I mentioned, when I come to Canada it would be cool to meet up to exchange ideas, do some sparring and test things out. I do not know where it is yet (as I mentioned, I have a 3 year old son so this type of trip requires planning, saving and time) but I will send you a PM when it is all settled.
    Last edited by Bjorn; 11/15/2007 11:52am, .

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  • rw4th
    replied
    Originally posted by PCH
    From what I understand, Dimitri's school offers grappling & kickboxing classes; they are the "core" around which other skills are built.

    "The Shredder" is simply an add-on to the grappling range. It is NOT a "system" of it's own any more than the De La Riva Guard is a style of grappling onto itself.
    Last edited by rw4th; 11/15/2007 12:25pm, .

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  • rw4th
    replied
    Last edited by rw4th; 11/15/2007 11:18am, .

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  • soundless
    replied
    bjorn i was trying to have a decent conversation with you, i know with all the posts you may have missed my follow up post but please I'd like you to respond to it if you could, sorry it's fairly long.

    As for you PCH, I have in fact been jammed in the eye a number of times, I don't know how it's possible to avoid being jammed in the eye at least a few times in your life, and hell i've even jammed my uncles eye with my finger by accident when i was younger.

    second, you will have precious little time to get your hand in my face at least with me personally, if i cant keep distance to kicking range i move straight into a muay thai clinch and start throwing knees galore.

    "ohhhh but what if its on Da Str33tZ?! and he like ambushes you or somethings" as far as im concerned you guys are supposed to be using this system to defend yourself and not attack people with it so i guess i don't have to worry about people ambushing me with it, however if some jackass attacked me and by some weird chance tried to continuously put his hand in my face you can sure as hell bet i'd arm bar him because it IS in fact easy.

    which brings me to my last point, arms bars while standing ARE in fact quite easy when someone puts their hand in the vacinity of your face, why don't we see them more often? BECAUSE MMA PEOPLE PURPOSELY AVOID PUTTING THEIR HANDS IN A VULNERABLE SPOT.

    I don't know you, and i doubt you read the whole thread before posting because you haven't added anything to the thread in terms of information, befored you came i was speaking with bjorn to get more information. Now either adress my follow up concern post with new information!

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  • Kintanon
    replied
    Originally posted by PCH
    Also, "armbaring" someone with a standing armbar when they shred is farfetched at best...


    You make applying standing joint locks sound so easy! And it is... IF your opponent isn't fighting back.


    If standing armbars are so easy to pull off, why do you hardly ever see them at grappling tournaments...? I've competed in many kinds of grappling tournaments and haven't seen it happen --ever. (I've have seen a couple clips of Waki Gatame from Judo tournaments on Youtube, though).
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP9m36CdhhI <--- My personal favorite
    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search <--- hundreds of other examples

    I know, the flying armbar is a bit silly. And might be risky on concrete, but it's far from the worst thing that will happen to you if you stick your arm out and put your hand on someones face and leave it there. I imagine just Judoka would be GIDDY with joy over the gift you've give them. Even Aikodka are probably going to hurt you good if you gift them with your arm.

    As a side note: if your opponent is keeping their hands up, protecting their face, how do you go about getting your hand through their guard?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tom Kagan
    replied
    Originally posted by PCH
    The simple fact is: people cannot attack when they are flinching, that is the whole concept of The Shredder to induce a series of involuntary flinch response in the opponent when you are in clinch/grappling range. Then you work off that flinch. The opponent will try to get your fingers out of their eyes, turn their eyes away, etc. --thus creating oppenings.


    Human beings WILL NOT ignore fingers in their eyes while they counter. They will get the fingers out of their eyes by what ever mean necessary THEN fight back.

    That's just the way it is. 5, 10, 30, 40 years of martial arts training cannot "undo" millions of years of evolution (i.e. our flinch response).

    While I don't necessarily disagree, using pseudo-science to support an argument doesn't help you. I will also go on to say that most people flinch because it is a LEARNED RESPONSE, not an instinctual one. Thus, it can be unlearned - or even ignored when it isn't a big deal (as in my 2nd example of my first post of this thread).


    Bjorn,

    Your attempts to paint every post in this thread in the same color of some sort of a bad manners witch hunt by people who have already made of their minds is EXACTLY what I mean by "bitch patrol". You would be better served by addressing the substance of the valid arguments and answer the questions raised to the best of your abilities instead.

    A reasonable person would assume the purpose of you putting up those videos was for discussion, not "ooh lookie at me aint this great?" Your reaction is unwarranted.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 11/15/2007 7:55am, .

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  • IndoChinese
    replied
    and fyi, this reversing windmilling, spears, crazy monkey, etc. all these this little 'fighting kits' that have been pumped out in the past decade are all truncated versions of pukulan/silat.

    it is terribly obvious when you know the source material.

    just like scabs=sansoo.

    Leave a comment:


  • IndoChinese
    replied
    i am fourty years old.

    i have 36 yrs. experience in Liu Seong Kuntao Silat.

    i can, but usually wont, do jumping spinning back kicks. actually, i have won a few sparring matches that way, now that i think about it.

    and i will reiterate...those face clawing techniques are gutter techniques. that type of training is merely playing off on people's tendancies towards sadism.

    did he show you the biting too? that goes hand in hand with those movements.

    as far as rudeness goes, i respond like an echo and am not at all passive aggressive.

    i run on DC.

    i have nothing against you, dont know who you are, and could care less. i am making a critique (somewhat) of those techniques, and imo, they fail. maybe some of what he does would work, but what i have seen so far is less than impressive.

    he might be a great guy, a big hit at parties, and good family man.

    he is however, not an expert martial artist.

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