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Richard Dimitri and "The Shredder™" ?

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    #46
    This is from the other thread on the Shredder. Thought I'd do them the favor of crossposting it here. After reading it, I'd be willing to try a seminar somewhere down the road.

    Hey there guys, name's Ryu.
    I'm posting on here because I have a background in MMA/BJJ and have been studying and field testing some of the Senshido stuff for the last year and a half or so. I've added the shredder to my arsenal, and I'll explain why.

    Keep in mind it's late, so I may be a bit groggy here.

    First a bit about my background.
    Been involved with the martial arts for almost 20 years now.

    When I was 14 I first started getting involved with JKD. When I was 16 I started taking lessons in JKD concepts from Paul Vunak and Thomas Cruz. Got involved with BJJ after the first UFC, and started attending seminars with Rickson Gracie, and Fabio Santos.
    Continued with my JKD concepts training, and also enrolled in Carlos Machado's BJJ academy in Dallas. Spent time as well in a judo school run by Sensei Vince Tamura, and am now currently a full instructor in JKD concepts under sifu Paul Vunak.

    Okay.
    Well lots has been said about Rich's concepts (some intelligent, some not so intelligent) so I figured I'd come on to say my piece, and explain the shredder......from at least my experience with it and how I use it in conjunction with my JKD and MMA format.

    First and foremost, the shred is not a magic pill. It's not a "secret move" to beat grapplers, it's not a killer technique or a move to learn that will let the 130 pound nerd beat up the big bad 200 pound wrestler.
    Anyone who thinks or says that is a moron. Plain and simple.

    That being said, because of what the shred is exactly, I think there's semantic misunderstandings that happen when people first hear about it. (It's an eye gouging system, it's about scratching people's faces, etc.)

    The shred is a tool and concept used in extreme close quarters. The shred's effectivenss is due to the human body's natural flinch and defense response when it's eyes, nose, breathing ways, throat, etc. are being threatened.
    (i.e. when something comes at our eyes we blink....whether we want to or not. We try to defend against a gouge by turning our head, grabbing the hand, tucking our chin down, etc.)
    The shred follows these flinch responses on the quarter beat, and in so doing creates a repetitive attack that bypasses the flinch response of the human body.
    What this means is that when the fighter is in good position, he may shred his opponent, and when doing so, the opponent is put (naturally) on the defensive without good leverage, balance, or motivation to go offensive.

    When the defender ducks his head to escape the gouge, his ear is being pulled off, when he tries to defend his ear, fingers are rammed into his eyes, as he tries to duck under and clinch, his neck is cranked to one side, while his eye is gouged from the other hand, while his hair is pulled, while his chin is palmed, while his head is cranked to the other side, while his legs are being jammed, while he's being pulled down to the ground, etc.

    The repetitiveness of the attack is in the clinch at all times. And because of the immediate threat, the body must immediately defend itself. The problem is that the attack becomes "too quick" for the defenses to catch up to in a sense. Trying to simply bypass the "defense" mechanism of the body and "force" a takedown, clinch, etc. usually results in a loss of balance, leverage, weak powered shoot, etc.

    The hands travel across the face, and never lift off the face while they do so. The hands are so invasive that the body's natural response (even among fighters) is to immediately try and get those hands away.
    (Test this out. Clinch with someone and instruct them to try their damndest to keep their hands in your face no matter what. The body's reaction to it is sometimes surprising. Do it full out and with full resistance with both sides.)

    The shred also is, as I mentioned before, a close quarter tactic. This means that you DO NOT extend your arms for it....ever. To do so is not "shredding."
    You don't extend your arms on the ground, and you don't extend your arms on your feet either....
    it's easy to simply duck under an extended arm in the clinch, and go for a back suplex, ankle pick, or any other host of takedowns at your disposal.
    If you're grappling and someone reaches up to grab your face while you're mounted.....well it's easy to simply spin around their outstretched arm and fall back into an armbar. Or slap it to the side and get a shoulder choke, or any other host of submissions from that position.

    What then does the shred do if it doesn't involve extending arms in any way, shape, or form?
    The shred is a clinch weapon. It's an anchor weapon. You use it in grappling when you have full control of your opponent's head and neck, and have trapped it to your hands (this can be with your elbow, your hand, in between your chest and the ground, etc.)

    In order to shred you have to trap/anchor/keep the opponent's head locked to you. Your arms are not extended at all, and position is a must in order to perform it correctly (and work it against a fully resistant opponent).
    I like to shred in the midst of my groundwork. I like to get a mount position, stretch my opponent out, and give him trouble with the shred while keeping his head in between the ground and my chest. Usually he will flinch in a way that opens him up for a nice armbar anyway.

    You can't simply "shred" from long distance either. You have to use skill in the boxing range, the kickboxing range, etc. to get into the clinching range. Once in the clinch, you need strength, balance, and base to keep from being tossed on your head. Shredding becomes a tool to give an edge here if the opponent is trapped to you and is forced to suddenly continually go on the defensive.

    The shred is not anything secret or mystical. It's a realistic tool that can be trained with resistance (goggles can be worn to protect eyes, etc.) and can be added to an already existing repertoire of MMA skills.
    It has nothing to do with simply "eye gouging" an opponent.

    It is a behaviorally/psychologically based tool that interrupts the body's defense/offense systems.
    If anything it can be used to give openinings in the clinch or the ground. Definitely something that does have merit in my opinion.

    That doesn't mean I won't use my low single, rear naked, or kimura when I can. But it's nice to have something else I can actually field test and see work in my training against resisting opponents.

    Hope this clears up some misconceptions. Rich is a genuinely nice and ethical individual, and I fully respect him for that. I believe he has a lot of knowledge on what he does, and has some good experience behind him.
    His concept has been working for me for the last year.....and I train it with people who are punching my face with gloves, kicking my thighs with hard kicks, armbarring me from the ground, and trying to choke me out from behind.

    Take care,
    Ryu

    Comment


      #47
      Whatever value "The shredder" may have is immensely obscured by the ridiculousness of the claims of some of his practicioners, and senshido's own "street soldiers unite" thing, which sounds extremely stupid.

      Comment


        #48
        That being said, sticking fingers/hand in face is a valuable tool/technique/whatever fagged up phase you wanto call it.
        I've been doing it for a few months, and had never heard of senshido. Am I "shredding" correctly?

        Comment


          #49
          The quote Bunyip posted does put it into its proper perspective. I think that a lot of the negative opinion comes from the rather emotive name combined with agressive over marketing.

          I think the equivalent would be if the mount was marketed as 'The Dominator'.

          Hmm.... I see a money making idea here....

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by SamHarber
            I think the equivalent would be if the mount was marketed as 'The Dominator'.
            Hahahahahahaha. The Dominator is the ideal setup for the Supremely Devastating Mortal Arm Annihilator of Doom.

            Comment


              #51
              LOL @ The Dominator

              I'll agree with Hedge on all counts. The way it was described by Ryu makes it sound like a valid technique (though still certainly not anything that "nullifies" grappling). But the marketing of it is ridiculous, and does obscure any benefit it might have. And I am forced to wonder, given the marketing, how it is taught to people. Is it made clear that you need to know how to do things like sprawl out of a takedown before you can apply the shredder? Is it made clear that you are going to have to reverse position when mounted before you can apply the shredder? Or is it taught as a way to get out from under mount? Is it taught as a way to avoid a takedown?

              I'll go so far as to say that it may be valid to have it as simply another technique in your arsenal. But I still think that, due to the marketing of it (including all the "too deadly for THE STREET (tm) stuff) it sounds like BS, and it sounds like it as being offered as a panacea for people who can't really fight to be able to beat people who can.

              Regards,
              Matt

              Comment


                #52
                We had the discussion about how far the fingers can go in and what it does in another thread about KCD. That does not matter. There will be no popping eyeballs. Not even on T43 STR33T...

                Nuff said, let the flames flare...

                P

                Comment


                  #53
                  "Is it made clear that you need to know how to do things like sprawl out of a takedown before you can apply the shredder? Is it made clear that you are going to have to reverse position when mounted before you can apply the shredder?"

                  Yes. That's what we keep saying. He does NOT say that the Shredder makes grappling null and void. People here keep adding that bit in for themselves, and then slating it.

                  As for the marketing I did read somewhere about Richard and early Senshido. Years ago finances were bad, and no one was taking an interest. He consulted some guy who was into Marketing, and then followed his advice. I can see that some of the marketing is a little over the top. I am 40 years of age, so I don't want to be a "Street Soldier" or anything like that. But customers come in all shapes and sizes. And some of it soundfs like psychological babble. But, in fairness to Senshido, it does make sense when you actually see it in action.

                  I tried to get other Police Forces in the UK interested in sending people to the seminar. The partial shred would be an excellent tool for our people. But I reckon that the Logo (already discussed on the other thread) put them off.

                  "it sounds like it as being offered as a panacea for people who can't really fight to be able to beat people who can."

                  Does it? It does't sound like that to me but, then again, I've been looking into this stuff for months. I have never heard them make this claim, and only heard them talk of hard training to achieve results.

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Bri,

                    Your description of it doesn't sound like that. But the one on the website does, at least in places. Just so there's no misunderstanding.

                    Regards,
                    Matt

                    Comment


                      #55
                      I haven't noticed that. If it gives that impression then it is a mistake. I realise that some selected quotes, taken out of contex, may be used against Senshido (or anyone for that matter). But if you can point me in the direction of ANYTHING that suggests that the Shredder can be used, on its own, to easily defeat just about anyone, then let me know and I will ask Richard to consider withdrawing it.

                      At the Sunday seminar he went out of his way to explain that the Shredder is NOT the "end all and be all". It does NOT replace anything, but is an "add on". It is something extra. Yes, it is easy to learn. Yes, you can use it to defeat people. But only in the context of using other fighting skills (grappling, kick boxing) as a delivery system.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        PS - did I succesfully address your other points? Like about the sprawl and reversing positions?

                        Come on, give them credit if you think it fair. There are alot of misconceptions here. Lets at least acknowledge when some of them are put to rest. Yes?

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Yes, you addressed them. At this point, I would have to see it to comment further.

                          Regards,
                          Matt

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Richard Dimitri is full of shit.

                            Granted, training with him is probably better than training at a McDojo karate place, however, it is a hell of a lot worse than doing strightup MMA or even just BJJ.

                            Richard Dimitri tried to be a BJJ guy, could not hang with the boys, and then proclaimed himself to be a Street Soldier and started advertizing his bullshit. He is, essentially, a failed grappler peddling crap to naive consumers because he didn't have what it takes to do BJJ/MMA.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by HAPKO3
                              Richard Dimitri is full of shit.

                              Granted, training with him is probably better than training at a McDojo karate place, however, it is a hell of a lot worse than doing strightup MMA or even just BJJ.

                              Richard Dimitri tried to be a BJJ guy, could not hang with the boys, and then proclaimed himself to be a Street Soldier and started advertizing his bullshit. He is, essentially, a failed grappler peddling crap to naive consumers because he didn't have what it takes to do BJJ/MMA.
                              Come on man, tell us how you REALLY feel.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                lol this is funny.

                                Most people here have created their own idea's of what Senshido is... i personaly have no idea how you people have gotten these views... obviously its from never training, or meeting rich, or any of his students.

                                "do they practice with fully resisting oponents?"

                                You moron, if you knew anything about Senshido, looked at the website, this would be an obvious YES. DO SOME RESEARCH!!!!

                                Richard Dimitri is full of shit.

                                Granted, training with him is probably better than training at a McDojo karate place, however, it is a hell of a lot worse than doing strightup MMA or even just BJJ.

                                Richard Dimitri tried to be a BJJ guy, could not hang with the boys, and then proclaimed himself to be a Street Soldier and started advertizing his bullshit. He is, essentially, a failed grappler peddling crap to naive consumers because he didn't have what it takes to do BJJ/MMA.
                                wow you seem to know him pretty well.... have you trained with him.....let me guess NO!! do you know someone who has trained with him.....ummm i dout it!

                                you guys are as far off base as you could possibly be.

                                Rich's stuff is simply geared toward a single goal, thats not compeating in the ring. because the ring and street are differen't should you not train differently?

                                please get some first hand knowledge of what the shredder is before you critisize it, basicaly you dont like the name, or the discription... good for you. HOW ABOUT YOU TRY IT!!???

                                its easy to fit things into nice little packages... "Its RBSD so it has to suck teh str33t stuff is gay" "i dont like tony blaure, Rich must be gay"

                                Good for you moron, how about you stop being lazy, and accualy FIND OUT IF ITS CRAP!!!

                                your supposed to be exposing fruads here lol. "meh, the name sounds gey.... i dont like it" "i dont like the semantics on his website... ya it must be crap"

                                good work guys:rolleyes:

                                sorry for the harsh language.... but please, if you guys dont have to make inteligent arguments, im sure as hell not.

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