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The siu nin tao dilemma

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    The siu nin tao dilemma

    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats

    #2
    so what is your questions per se? you learn to move the horse with the second form. most people don't get past the first form b/c most ppl don't get past the beginning stages of any martial art. few people realize it takes a few months for even the most rudimentary concepts to really start to fit together. few schools stress forming conditioned responses, b/c that involves in your face training, and that makes ppl who want to think they're ready for a fight uncomfortable, ppl get hit and then you lose money when they don't come back. if you sit back and let ppl take shots at you, they'll get through eventually no matter how good you are. it's easier to teach some chi sao and lop sao than it is to actually get in there and drill relentlessly. i completely agree with you. i'm only at 2 1/2 years of wing chun, but most of my training is devoted to drilling technique. i put little stock in doing mostly chi sao, if my timing and distance is better you'll never get close enough to do chi sao. wing chun like most martial arts is taught by many who barely grasp what they are teaching or trying to teach rather.

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by sakurabar0x0rz
      so what is your questions per se?
      No questions, really, just wanted to hear from wing chun people. IMO the siu nin tao problem is a very serious issue regarding the current state of wing chun (and why people trash wing chun with such enthusiasm, specially here).

      Although it would be nice to hear a couple of training suggestions, to avoid locking up the students in that "siu nin tao mentality".
      That civilisation may not sink,
      Its great battle lost,
      Quiet the dog, tether the pony
      To a distant post;
      Our master Caesar is in the tent
      Where the maps are spread,
      His eyes fixed upon nothing,
      A hand under his head.


      - W.B. Yeats

      Comment


        #4
        Blame the instructor(s).

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by ronin69
          Blame the instructor(s).
          That too. However, siu nin tao is an essential part of the training, and the mindset I describe above is really seductive for beginners - they suddenly feel they can take on anyone with their control of the centerline, and are eventually disappointed when they find out that it takes a lot more work than that to actually learn how to fight.
          That civilisation may not sink,
          Its great battle lost,
          Quiet the dog, tether the pony
          To a distant post;
          Our master Caesar is in the tent
          Where the maps are spread,
          His eyes fixed upon nothing,
          A hand under his head.


          - W.B. Yeats

          Comment


            #6
            Wing Chun Lawyer "It is not a kata, in the sense that it is not a series of movements designed to simulate a fight. It is a series of hand (punches, parries) techniques applied independently of each other, designed to help the student practice said techniques."

            My opinion is that Sil Lum Tao is a catalog of the basic hands techniques in wing chun. I think in most part wing chun doesnt really have forms (per say). Just mainly catalogs of techniques and suggestive possible applications (obviously one can design thier own combinations and apllications.)
            Ghost of Charles Dickens

            Comment


              #7
              All I can say good about wing chun is they have cute form names. Little idea, AWWWWWwww...


              "The only important elements in any society
              are the artistic and the criminal,
              because they alone, by questioning the society's values,
              can force it to change."-Samuel R. Delany

              RENDERING GELATINOUS WINDMILL OF DICKS

              THIS IS GOING TO BE THE BEST NON-EUCLIDIAN SPLATTERJOUST EVER

              It seems that the only people who support anarchy are faggots, who want their pathetic immoral lifestyle accepted by the mainstream society. It wont be so they try to create their own.-Oldman34, friend to all children

              Comment


                #8
                Freddy, I agree. IMO those forms are more like teaching tools than anything else.
                That civilisation may not sink,
                Its great battle lost,
                Quiet the dog, tether the pony
                To a distant post;
                Our master Caesar is in the tent
                Where the maps are spread,
                His eyes fixed upon nothing,
                A hand under his head.


                - W.B. Yeats

                Comment


                  #9
                  But I mean you learn foot work in chum kiu, and then in bil gee? When people take a month of classes they dont see this stuff. You should progress through the forms and evolve with them. Well in theory it works.
                  Daniel: I don't know if I know enough karate.

                  Miyagi: Feeling correct.

                  Daniel: You sure know how to make a guy feel confident.

                  Miyagi: You trust the quality of what you know, not quantity.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    most wing chun practioners get too caught up in the trapping aspects of the style. They chase hands when they should be chasing space.

                    the problem I would say is not siu lim tao. The problem is too much emphasis on sticky hands and too little on actual sparring and catching bridges.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by BeLikeWater
                      most wing chun practioners get too caught up in the trapping aspects of the style. They chase hands when they should be chasing space.

                      the problem I would say is not siu lim tao. The problem is too much emphasis on sticky hands and too little on actual sparring and catching bridges.
                      I 100% agree!
                      Ghost of Charles Dickens

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I believe the solution is to spar realisticaly and as often as possible while still doing your wing chun forms

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by cannabis
                          I believe the solution is to spar realisticaly and as often as possible while still doing your wing chun forms
                          I would like to agree, but the point is the student simply does not learn any footwork while practicing siu nin tao.

                          A nice solution, however, would be teaching the students just enough footwork so that they can use their siu nin tao techniques while sparring.
                          That civilisation may not sink,
                          Its great battle lost,
                          Quiet the dog, tether the pony
                          To a distant post;
                          Our master Caesar is in the tent
                          Where the maps are spread,
                          His eyes fixed upon nothing,
                          A hand under his head.


                          - W.B. Yeats

                          Comment


                            #14
                            clip of Bruce Lee practising SNT:

                            www.knoxwingchun.com/norm/BruceLee/form01.wmv

                            Sui Nim Tao means little idea.This means two things:
                            1.they are the basic hand techniques and if you cannot master the basic hand techniques you will not master the correct techniques for fighting effectively.
                            2.if a beginner thinks too much they will be confused and will fail to learn what is being taught in the present.
                            Therefore a beginner must first totally empty his cup(clear mind of preconceptions) so that he can rebuild a completely new concept starting with a "little idea".
                            Wing chun is a soft style-the goal is not to fight force against force.To do this u have to abandon ur own force.This is done by muscle relaxation.For example,when punching the extensor muscles(triceps) are responsible for launching the punch and the contractor muscles(biceps) are those used in withdrawing the punch.If both sets of muscles are tensed,the extensor wastes much its power overcoming the tension of the contractor.But if the contractor muscles are relaxed all of the extensor muscles power is given into the punch.
                            One of the main characteristics of this form is that ur in the Character-two-adduction stance(yee-gee-kim-yueng-ma) and the feet are not moved at all during the form.This strengthens the legs while u practise the hand techniques.It is a simple stance compared to other styles in which u have to learn complcated stances for a long period before learning the hand techniques.You also learn to develop the stance and take force into the ground(rooting).

                            Now just practicing the form is not going to turn you into a fighter.I see forms as the "alphabet" u need to know the alphabet before you learn to write.
                            chi sao(sensitivity training) is like learning how to make the words and Lat-sao(free fighting) is learning how to make sentences.You need to do all three if you want maximum results.
                            Last edited by DANINJA; 1/27/2004 2:18pm, .

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Wing chun lawyer your sifu must teach you the footwork when my teacher showed me sil lum dao he showed me the proper footwork to use whith each technique while sparring otherwise you will have to learn it on your own and take some hits you should not have taken

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