[Oxford UK] So how full of it are these guys?

[Rock Ape]

..//..I don't know what sort of Iai or Kenjutsu that BAMA teaches, but I have watched some footage of general swordwork from some of the Japanese schools (albeit not in great detail) and most of what they practice seems to be pretty much identical to what we do with the basics.

So what you're saying is that you're not qualified to discuss the specifics and generalisms of Japanese swordsmanship. Well I am. I've studied Muso Shinden Ryu for a considerable number of years, I've also studied Sosuishi Ryu with the only instructor here in the UK. If you're unable to determine the differences between made up-ryu and a legitimate gendai or koryu school, you're not really in a position to answer the questions I require. I'll drop your Grand Master an email and see what he has to say.

..//.. I don't pretend to be able to quantify 'effective' in terms of sword work, and it wasn't what I was referring to in the first place. Effective suggests you have a benchmark to compare it to, and aside from perhaps a few people in the world you don't precisely have Samurai-class swordsmen you can spar with to compare, do you?

Well actually yes, over the last 20 years I've had the opportunity to study with several Japanese instructors, non of whom have invented their own "style" My first instructor was trained in Japan and most recently, my exposure to the sword line within Sosuishi Ryu was likewise with an instructor who'd spent a decade in Japan and is a legitimate Shihan.

However; to quote from your own association's website:

Ken Kai Ryu

Tim Forsyth has become one of the countries leading experts in the ..//.. Japanese sword

That is indeed a bold statement to make considering the frequency in which the Japanese are here in the UK, additionally, almost all of the people I've spoken too within the UK sword community have never heard of either Tim Forsyth or Pete Delane - other than from the threads which exist like this and those on other more traditional martial arts websites. Not exactly a glowing reference to being a "leading expert" within a fairly small community of iaido and kenjutsu exponents.

..//..And yes, it did seem a bit rude, but I understand that somebody in this forum would have a well justified frustration with phony and suspect martial arts and teachers.

Well I did preface my comments with "but"

I'm going to offer you a small bit of advice, please feel free to take it or leave it.

In 21 years of continuous study in three classical disciplines there's always been one constant when dealing with people - ESPECIALLY WESTERNERS who've "invented" their own styles of martial arts...

Those people may well claim to have been sick of politics, seen the "ineffectiveness" of what they were previously doing or wanted to do their own thing free from the constraints of larger organisations; regardless of the reason/excuse it has always been my experience that these people simply can't cut it in the mainstream even though for some, they have done so for 10 or even 20 years - it all comes down to bullshit.

I'm sorry if that doesn't fit with your impression of what you're seeing.

[bjjgame]

Um,
Not to change the subject...
but there are a lot of posts on here by people who have posted only on this thread.
Anybody taking bets on how many of them are instuctors/Bushido school owners/the same person?

[Sayle]

There is a substantial difference between legitimacy by lineage and legitimacy by technique. If a style has legitimacy from lineage it is practically assured that legitimacy by technique comes along with the package, because the style is effective. On the other hand if a style does NOT possess legitimacy by lineage and has been newly started its technique is open to scrutiny and rightly so. It is doubly suspect if it is never admitted that this is the case or is a 'great secret', which seems to be the case with BAMA.

I don't know what sort of Iai or Kenjutsu that BAMA teaches, but I have watched some footage of general swordwork from some of the Japanese schools (albeit not in great detail) and most of what they practice seems to be pretty much identical to what we do with the basics. I don't pretend to be able to quantify 'effective' in terms of sword work, and it wasn't what I was referring to in the first place. Effective suggests you have a benchmark to compare it to, and aside from perhaps a few people in the world you don't precisely have Samurai-class swordsmen you can spar with to compare, do you?

In answer to your other questions I don't know how well techniques work in comparison with other styles. I know they were certainly effective when I had to put them into practice more than once. Unfortunately my idyllic vision of college was somewhat shattered. I had bruises, but in each case someone who was physically stronger than me (at least in my opinion) lost. This was only twice, and the third fight I had in the year barely qualified as a scuffle. It only took on quick blow, so not exactly a good judge of overall performance.

But I am at least confident in the effectiveness of the techniques. They are regularly demonstrated on both compliant and noncompliant targets when being taught, and actually explain what is happening with the muscles, joints, bone and ect. So yes, I am confident. Do I know whether they are as effective as other martial styles, such as Shotokan Karate which it is based around? No, because I don't practice Shotokan Karate. Unless I try another style I personally won't know. So I can't answer that.

And yes, it did seem a bit rude, but I understand that somebody in this forum would have a well justified frustration with phony and suspect martial arts and teachers.

[BomberH]

[Rock Ape]

..//..Honestly, I don't particularly care about legitimacy as long as the techniques are effective. If I was starting a martial art style on the other hand I would have a different viewpoint. You don't piss over an effective tradition because you disagree with it somehow in some weird, nebulous way.

Not to appear rude but, I guess you'd go to a doctor that wasn't really a doctor, - Because he told you he knew what he was doing? Or, you'd eventually send your kids to a school full of people telling you they know how to teach, but actually can't?

My point being, not caring about the origins of what you do, leaves you wide open to bullshit because there's no benchmark or starting point to reference from or too.

How do you know the techniques "work" ?

How many fights have you been in where the techniques have been pressure tested ?

In terms of my interest in this system (the sword) I'd be very interested to know how you quantify "effective" in relation to what is being taught.

[Sayle]

Wow, that compliment just made my day! Heh, I'm actually quite cheerful now. But personal thanks aside I think the real question is that besides the personality cult surrounding 'Master Chusan' and the styles lacking any lineage is it effective and is the general teaching environment friendly? If it is I suppose somebody who can look past the cultishness and is already in BAMA might as well stay.

[hungryjoe]

I confess I'm not exactly the most qualified person to talk on the subject. I don't have first hand experience of Bushido, I'm only seventeen and I am more concerned with a fulfilling experience than academic distinctions of history and the like. Nonetheless I feel I do have something to add to this discussion considering I am a member of a martial arts group that directly split from the Bushido Academy of Martial Arts under Peter Delane.

I'll try to be unbiased as I can with my personal analysis. The head of our 'style' (which is almost identical to shotokan karate with what feels like a smattering of modern combat) was according to him Peter Delane's right hand man at the time he left Bushido. I don't personally know how much of this is truth and how much anecdote, but I'll relate as accurately as I heard it.

The gist of it is that the head of my style was becoming both increasingly concerned with how BAMA was becoming more and more profit oriented and Peter Delane forming what could only be described as a personality cult round himself. Apparently his brother is still a member of BAMA and they are actually estranged because of it. I sensed a sore spot and didn't actually pursue that avenue of inquiry.

My curiosity was piqued however and I had a look at the promotional website of BAMA. I generally consider myself a relatively sharp person, if not knowledgeable about the technicalities of the martial arts, but all these new styles that I hadn't heard of and the almost obsessive mention of 'Master Chusan' who broke off because of his dissatisfaction with the martial arts as a whole was worrying.

Then there was the being unable to continue in other styles. I personally inquired about it with my instructor who told me that if I had the time and the resources to pursue it I should as a learning and helpful experience, and the idea of cutting yourself off from any other previous arts sounded to me like an attempt to block people who had martial arts experience and the 'loyalty' part sounded to me like trying to force people to stay.

Okay, I'm naturally a cynic and not unbiased, but I'm obviously not the only one with alarm bells ringing over this. In fact I would say all my previous opinions have already been stated by varouis sides.

Honestly, I don't particularly care about legitimacy as long as the techniques are effective. If I was starting a martial art style on the other hand I would have a different viewpoint. You don't piss over an effective tradition because you disagree with it somehow in some weird, nebulous way.

I would be interested in hearing other peoples' opinions.

But I suppose I should hold my own style under the same spotlight as Bushido. I don't know the lineage...does it even have one, if it broke off from Bushido? I know we don't teach all these styles on the Bushido website, but are they effective and at least partially true to its roots? Honestly, I don't know.

When I read about Bushido I did a bit of soul searching to check if I was being duped the same way as all these people who leapt to its defense in other topics. I came to the conclusion of no. The environment there is friendly, I can have heart-to-heart discussions with any instructor if I like, and I can't learn without regularly asking a question every two minutes about how something works.

The pricing is a little steep at 20 pounds for two hours, but it is difficult to judge its worth. In my case it is usually a one-on-one or a small group of two to three, and there is a good group dynamic. Is it too much for what I get? I don't know, maybe. But I know I wouldn't give it up for the world. I call the head of our dojo Gary in private but healthily respect him. Even with half his lcalf torn out in a motorcycle accident he teaches very well, and isn't afraid to admit that he doesn't know something(though I haven't actually seen it happen yet regarding techniques, only Japanese and historical footnotes)

From what I have read Peter Delane is the polar opposite. I don't know what to make of it, and the teaching style obviously works for some people where it wouldn't for me...its just that if people are taken advantage of by a cultish MA with a personality cult at the center and disrespect for other traditions...it doesn't make me angry, but it does make me unsettled.

In any case, I would appreciate the opinions of other people on the subject.

Bully for you Sayle!

You are one well written 17 year old who is welcome here on BS.

Thank you for your concise and obviously honest post.

We need more of your type here as you provide balance to the regular "summer break" group of teenage posters,

Joe

[Aragami]

After reading the posts on XBAMA forums, it seems as though Pete Delane is quite some character, I hope this doesn't come across as just trying to defend the art, only because I am in their system, however excluding Delane (I can't envision him attending the dojo in Birmingham), but I would like to hear from posters concerning the integrity of James Seaward, who is the 'Shujin' (as he told me) of the Birmingham branch.

[Aragami]

After reading the posts on XBAMA forums, it seems as though Pete Delane is quite some character, I hope this doesn't come across as just trying to defend the art, only because I am in their system, however excluding Delane (I can't envision him attending the dojo in Birmingham), but I would like to hear from posters concerning the integrity of James Seaward, who is the 'Shujin' (as he told me) of the Birmingham branch.

[Aragami]

[Sayle]

I confess I'm not exactly the most qualified person to talk on the subject. I don't have first hand experience of Bushido, I'm only seventeen and I am more concerned with a fulfilling experience than academic distinctions of history and the like. Nonetheless I feel I do have something to add to this discussion considering I am a member of a martial arts group that directly split from the Bushido Academy of Martial Arts under Peter Delane.

I'll try to be unbiased as I can with my personal analysis. The head of our 'style' (which is almost identical to shotokan karate with what feels like a smattering of modern combat) was according to him Peter Delane's right hand man at the time he left Bushido. I don't personally know how much of this is truth and how much anecdote, but I'll relate as accurately as I heard it.

The gist of it is that the head of my style was becoming both increasingly concerned with how BAMA was becoming more and more profit oriented and Peter Delane forming what could only be described as a personality cult round himself. Apparently his brother is still a member of BAMA and they are actually estranged because of it. I sensed a sore spot and didn't actually pursue that avenue of inquiry.

My curiosity was piqued however and I had a look at the promotional website of BAMA. I generally consider myself a relatively sharp person, if not knowledgeable about the technicalities of the martial arts, but all these new styles that I hadn't heard of and the almost obsessive mention of 'Master Chusan' who broke off because of his dissatisfaction with the martial arts as a whole was worrying.

Then there was the being unable to continue in other styles. I personally inquired about it with my instructor who told me that if I had the time and the resources to pursue it I should as a learning and helpful experience, and the idea of cutting yourself off from any other previous arts sounded to me like an attempt to block people who had martial arts experience and the 'loyalty' part sounded to me like trying to force people to stay.

Okay, I'm naturally a cynic and not unbiased, but I'm obviously not the only one with alarm bells ringing over this. In fact I would say all my previous opinions have already been stated by varouis sides.

Honestly, I don't particularly care about legitimacy as long as the techniques are effective. If I was starting a martial art style on the other hand I would have a different viewpoint. You don't piss over an effective tradition because you disagree with it somehow in some weird, nebulous way.

I would be interested in hearing other peoples' opinions.

But I suppose I should hold my own style under the same spotlight as Bushido. I don't know the lineage...does it even have one, if it broke off from Bushido? I know we don't teach all these styles on the Bushido website, but are they effective and at least partially true to its roots? Honestly, I don't know.

When I read about Bushido I did a bit of soul searching to check if I was being duped the same way as all these people who leapt to its defense in other topics. I came to the conclusion of no. The environment there is friendly, I can have heart-to-heart discussions with any instructor if I like, and I can't learn without regularly asking a question every two minutes about how something works.

The pricing is a little steep at 20 pounds for two hours, but it is difficult to judge its worth. In my case it is usually a one-on-one or a small group of two to three, and there is a good group dynamic. Is it too much for what I get? I don't know, maybe. But I know I wouldn't give it up for the world. I call the head of our dojo Gary in private but healthily respect him. Even with half his lcalf torn out in a motorcycle accident he teaches very well, and isn't afraid to admit that he doesn't know something(though I haven't actually seen it happen yet regarding techniques, only Japanese and historical footnotes)

From what I have read Peter Delane is the polar opposite. I don't know what to make of it, and the teaching style obviously works for some people where it wouldn't for me...its just that if people are taken advantage of by a cultish MA with a personality cult at the center and disrespect for other traditions...it doesn't make me angry, but it does make me unsettled.

In any case, I would appreciate the opinions of other people on the subject.

[Rock Ape]

What sword syllabus do they work from ?

What is their so called sword style named ?

How many kata do they study and what is the emphasis ?

[Squiff]

No dramas - they would say that and you would hear stories of other styles coming to the dojo's for challenge matches and losing heavily. Apparently these included Mike Finn???? If you have any questions on them just send them my way - will answer honestly.

[CrackFox]

Sorry Squiff, I got you mixed up with archangel45, who claimed the B.A.M.A's detractors are just jealous - hence the sarky comment.

[Squiff]

Perhaps a tad simplistic but in a way yes!! Some of the street stuff is good but no different than what you can get in JKD or Wing Chun. Likei said, technically they are sound, but what annoyed me towards the end was the fact that people were getting their black belt on a Sunday and then starting to teach on a Monday - seriously, it went on. Dan grades from other styles would come on a reccie and see through this.

As for watching DVD's - no, they were bad at that. How can you watch footage of the gracies, Kano or Master Sken and mock them??? That is what i will be left with - a memory of people mocking what they did not understand.

They seem to make people happy and more power to them - if people want to pay 300 quid a month to learn how to PERFORM a kata with all their spirit, go ahead knock yourself out, just don't bitch about other styles whilst you do it.