It's a Sad Day - Gracie University

[migo]

You mean you want to see if someone who trains under an official Gracie Torrance Black Belt compares their blue belt to that of someone who got it through online testing?

[Dsimon3387]

You mean you want to see if someone who trains under an official Gracie Torrance Black Belt compares their blue belt to that of someone who got it through online testing?

yeah.

[money]

Dojo raid the internet?

Oh hell yes, it is long overdue.

[migo]

yeah.

That is a pretty reasonable control. Would also require comparing a Gracie Torrance Blue Belt to blues under various instructors, such as say Gracie Barra since they have a well set out curriculum.

[Dsimon3387]

That is a pretty reasonable control. Would also require comparing a Gracie Torrance Blue Belt to blues under various instructors, such as say Gracie Barra since they have a well set out curriculum.

yeah basically all I would want to establish was how it compares to a comprable live training scenerio... no necessarily how good it is. How good it is is another question for another time... they already have some data on that.... And they have a live training process at the end to make up for any places you fall through the cracks.

I actually think it is well conceived... like the lot of you though I wonder if it can work this way, and if there is ever any way that something like this could work.

I also am not the best control because even though I am not a roller haha I have enough experience that if I entered a boot camp for something like this I could probably learn quite a bit, that is what bothers me, I wish I could find someone who would mimick the typical white belt Gracie student who had less than 5 years experience...

Anybody here fit this category? If you enter I still will probaby do it and I will still do the write up.

[migo]

Yeah, I definitely don't qualify. The thing is, I was able to teach myself a fair bit just watching highlight videos on sherdog. It's amazing what simply knowing to go to the ground and knowing a few things to do can do for letting you beat someone who doesn't know. I suspect it actually would leave most people more competent in a fight than they were before, I think the problem is just that a BJJ blue belt used to be held on the same pedastel as a black belt in another art that people are almost looking at this as a black belt course.

[joecos]

Update:

Just got my "Gracie Insider" email for the month, in which they state:

10,000 Students in 4 Months!

Grand Master Helio Gracie once said that if everyone on earth knew Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, the world would be a better place. Even though we are far from reaching his goal, we are making notable progress. On July 16, 2009, after 4 months of going live, Gracie University student enrollment has surpassed 10,000. We knew it would grow fast, but not this fast!

I wonder how many of those are actually PAYING students?

[sapateiro]

If she's up for it, I'll ask her to take the grading (i'll pay-of course) then roll with one of the girls from my club she knows, for a one- off test. This will probably take over a year to do, but i'll diary it...

Sorry, but you're missing the point. Gracie Barra teach sportive sparring - ie. rolling. The gracie academy teach gracie jiu jitsu practical self defense ie. what you need to do when attacked. There's no reason why there shouldn't be some overlap but to get a balanced result you need a balanced test. How about...

1. Put them together to roll for 5 minutes (the GB girl will win).
2. Attack each of them in the way a random guy on the street will for 5 minutes (the GA girl will win).

Personally I don't think online testing could ever approach a real club in terms of quality of tuition, but it's worth noting that the guys at the Gracie Academy fail about 50% of the videos they receive - https://www.gracieuniversity.com/LC/...3QJ4TGT7X&n=28

The approach we have is to do the combatives programme first, then once the students have a good standard (and 4 stripes), allow them to start doing the sportive sparring so they can get balance of self defense & competition.

[sapateiro]

even if the guy had bought a BJJ black belt from Torrance Academy, he would still be a loser Bullshidoka if he was using that as an excuse to teach BJJ. Seriously--you can't get to black via the e-learning courses, but brown belt is a real fucking rank. People trust the BJJ purple and brown belts to be legit standards.

It'll be many years before blacks via video become an issue if at all. In the meantime Pat, Jarrod, and Jordan just got their black belts there and if anyone has a doubt about the quality of those guys, just go in & see for yourself. The standard is very high.

[CrackFox]

Sorry, but you're missing the point. Gracie Barra teach sportive sparring - ie. rolling. The gracie academy teach gracie jiu jitsu practical self defense ie. what you need to do when attacked.

Just going by the videos, their self defence seems to consist of block haymaker -> pull guard. You're a GJJ guy, is this what they do?

[sapateiro]

Just going by the videos, their self defence seems to consist of block haymaker -> pull guard. You're a GJJ guy, is this what they do?

Not at all. The haymaker is never blocked as this would be tricky if the guy was bigger & heavier than you - it's slipped so you can get to the back for a takedown. And pulling guard (note: not jumping guard) is a last resort, only used if the alternative is going to be ending up under topmount or sidemount.

[joecos]

Here's a question for the unwashed masses -- how in the world are they going to evaluate 10,000 videos every time one of their students wants to test for a stripe? Outsource it to India?

[gonzomalan]

okay, so i just read 4.5 months of this thread in one day (including 2 months of self-defense legal speculation), so my reply might be a little winded and rambling.
"gracie combatives" is the intro course, designed for people to be able to survive a fight with a larger opponent with no grappling skills, although it also lays the ground work for making a martial artist. in one of the lessons, during an armbar from the guard, rener stops and says that after you have the position locked in, but before pressure is applied, you can use the position to talk business. this is an example of being a martial artist, and not a fighter, because i believe the MA keeps his or her wits, whereas the fighter lets emotion get the best of him and flips off the crowd and talks trash to a defeated opponent... oops, sorry brock. the follow-up courses deal with grap-savvy opponents, i do believe, and rener said somewhere on the site that the follow up would include both gi and no-gi training, as well as some striking.
on the perceived breadth (or lack thereof) of the course: "i fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times". and if you have a consistent training partner, you should both be learning.
video testing may be less effective, but it's not ineffective. i think rener & ryron have been teaching since they were 10 or so, so i would imagine that they know how well people are rolling, and they advise students to preface their videos with any special considerations they have that would affect performance, such as short legs, bad back, etc.
they have a grading system so that if you pass, you know where you lost points, and i say "if you pass," because the faq says that just paying $85 won't guarantee a belt, and if you do fail, you'd have to pay again.
they have a video up of the first person to fail the video eval, and added in the details of where he got deductions while the video was playing, so someone a) was watching, and b) knew what to look for.
i think the $85 belt test fee is very reasonable because joining GU.com is free, and now so is the first lesson in the series (trap and roll mount escape). so 10,000 students on the Q&A forums and watching videos puts a strain on the server. how much would training at a bjj school cost in tuition up to the time it takes to get to a blue belt?
it's been said before, but i want to re-iterate: the highest rank you can get purely by video eval is 4th stripe brown belt, not black belt. and you have to be 16 to be able to test/earn the blue belt, just like most bjj schools. and as of now, they only have tests up to either blue belt or blue belt + 1 stripe.
"why not test in person at an affiliate gym?" there's not a whole lot of gracie academy affiliates in the world, but it is possible. a lot of the currently existing ones are in southern california, although there is a method of becoming affiliated. on that note, i believe "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" is de facto owned by Rorion, even if not de jure, while other Gracies have no problem advertising that they teach, say, "Royce Gracie Jiu Jitsu" or "Charles Gracie Jiu-Jitsu".
btw, the lessons are all as good as the free examples on GU.com. the detail of the technique and the constant considerations for punches or movement is astounding. i don't have any bjj experience, besides these videos and watching mma fights, but i really like these videos.

[datdamnmachine]

okay, so i just read 4.5 months of this thread in one day (including 2 months of self-defense legal speculation), so my reply might be a little winded and rambling.
"gracie combatives" is the intro course, designed for people to be able to survive a fight with a larger opponent with no grappling skills, although it also lays the ground work for making a martial artist. in one of the lessons, during an armbar from the guard, rener stops and says that after you have the position locked in, but before pressure is applied, you can use the position to talk business. this is an example of being a martial artist, and not a fighter, because i believe the MA keeps his or her wits, whereas the fighter lets emotion get the best of him and flips off the crowd and talks trash to a defeated opponent... oops, sorry brock. the follow-up courses deal with grap-savvy opponents, i do believe, and rener said somewhere on the site that the follow up would include both gi and no-gi training, as well as some striking.
on the perceived breadth (or lack thereof) of the course: "i fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times". and if you have a consistent training partner, you should both be learning.
video testing may be less effective, but it's not ineffective. i think rener & ryron have been teaching since they were 10 or so, so i would imagine that they know how well people are rolling, and they advise students to preface their videos with any special considerations they have that would affect performance, such as short legs, bad back, etc.
they have a grading system so that if you pass, you know where you lost points, and i say "if you pass," because the faq says that just paying $85 won't guarantee a belt, and if you do fail, you'd have to pay again.
they have a video up of the first person to fail the video eval, and added in the details of where he got deductions while the video was playing, so someone a) was watching, and b) knew what to look for.
i think the $85 belt test fee is very reasonable because joining GU.com is free, and now so is the first lesson in the series (trap and roll mount escape). so 10,000 students on the Q&A forums and watching videos puts a strain on the server. how much would training at a bjj school cost in tuition up to the time it takes to get to a blue belt?
it's been said before, but i want to re-iterate: the highest rank you can get purely by video eval is 4th stripe brown belt, not black belt. and you have to be 16 to be able to test/earn the blue belt, just like most bjj schools. and as of now, they only have tests up to either blue belt or blue belt + 1 stripe.
"why not test in person at an affiliate gym?" there's not a whole lot of gracie academy affiliates in the world, but it is possible. a lot of the currently existing ones are in southern california, although there is a method of becoming affiliated. on that note, i believe "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" is de facto owned by Rorion, even if not de jure, while other Gracies have no problem advertising that they teach, say, "Royce Gracie Jiu Jitsu" or "Charles Gracie Jiu-Jitsu".
btw, the lessons are all as good as the free examples on GU.com. the detail of the technique and the constant considerations for punches or movement is astounding. i don't have any bjj experience, besides these videos and watching mma fights, but i really like these videos.

There is another thread on the Lockflow.com forums regarding this. I answered another users question and I feel it accurately touches on your post as well:

Very good points, Ari. There seems to be alot of haters around here. I certainly respect anyone who trains at a BJJ school, works his butt off, and progesses. Keep up the good work@ But to dismiss new and different ways is closed minded. When on-line college degree peograms fist started, everyone had a problem with that as wee, calling them "degree mills" after the shady places that used to sell degrees for money and no work. Now, it's hard to find any resectalbe univerisity that doesn't offer some online programs along with the tradidtional programs.
Of corse live BJJ training is better. Of course, if one only learns the moves and doesn't practice them with live partners (or a limited number of partners, sizes, weights, experience levels, etc, they won't be very complete. Of course, nothing beats having a high level instructor right there to correct the little errors. All thjis is true. However, as stated before, there are MANY groups out there learning by video, books, etc AND training treir asses off with equaly dedicated partners, sheding blood sweat and tears to get better. In fact, I have a group I tain with and we were using the BJJ AMerica DVDs, which aren't near as complete as the Gracie DVDs seem to be. They carged alot more for instruction and testing and they are from a Machado lineage too. S anyway, I recently entered my first NAGA competition (no Gi) and finished first place after winning three matches. I was competing against guys from major BJJ schools and I did quite well with my video taining. I think it's whatever one puts into the training (after receiving quality instruction of course) that determines the progression of skill. The Gracies aren't perfect, but I see this on line system as very positive. With it, one has the option of testing at a certified Gracie school or via video. And to obtain level of black belt (which they state will take anywhere from 8 to 15 years) one has to go to the academey in Torrence, CA for several days to test for Black (so it's not really 100% video black belt). Anyway, it is what it is, but I think by my experience so far that a video trained student can develope quite well. Respect to all,

Marty

I would like to touch on this. I've actually thought about it a lot. I thought about online college courses and degrees. The fact is, you actually answered your own question by using this analogy.

There are some programs where you can simulate things such as IT work. For a lot of IT work, you just need access to a computer to do the work you need. Computer programing, certain network administration tasks, etc. These things can be simulated. There are other college degrees such as accounting that require having the math and legal knowledge along with certain computer programs. Anyone who has gone to school knows a lot of it is theory anyways.

There is a reason why people have to take training when they start a new job. That is because the actual job you do is usually absolutely nothing like how you learned it in school.

Now lets look at something like medical programs. You HAVE to go to school and learn from a qualified teacher AND perform hands-on work. That is because no matter how much you learn from a book, you still have to perform it in a real world or as close to real world situation as possible. Think medical internship and residency.

BJJ is like medical training. You have to do it hands on. You have to get down and dirty. You can still learn from books, online, seminars, etc; but the primary form of learning is by doing. I have a book on throws and takedowns. It doesn't matter how much I read it and can memorize everything in it. If I cannot practically apply it in a realistic situation, I don't know crap from butt.

Just so I can clarify this for everyone, both noobs and experience, when you get a black belt in BJJ you are getting an acknowledgment of you ability to practically apply the theories AND techniques of BJJ in a realistic situation.

[gonzomalan]

BJJ is like medical training. You have to do it hands on. You have to get down and dirty. You can still learn from books, online, seminars, etc; but the primary form of learning is by doing. I have a book on throws and takedowns. It doesn't matter how much I read it and can memorize everything in it. If I cannot practically apply it in a realistic situation, I don't know crap from butt.

Just so I can clarify this for everyone, both noobs and experience, when you get a black belt in BJJ you are getting an acknowledgment of you ability to practically apply the theories AND techniques of BJJ in a realistic situation.

i agree that you have to get the physical experience, and so do the gracies, which is why whenever anyone asks about training with a grappling dummy, a chair, their grandma, they say no, that it's best to get a live partner. live partner = levels of resistance + critique. i also believe that, as someone else said earlier in the thread, what you get out of training is what you put into it, so if your partner isn't putting in 100%, find another. remember, this series is targeted at people who for some reason or another don't think they can get bjj instruction, where it's b/c they live too far from any bjj school, or, like me, they lack funds and a regular time to commit to training.
also, the black belt is only given in person, and the curriculum up to blue + 2 stripes hasn't been made available yet, so no need to worry about video black belts.
i want to add that, unless i'm not reading something, the black belt would be in gracie jiu jitsu, not "gracie combatives". i seriously doubt that they would give a black belt rank to recognize a student who can outgrapple someone who has no grappling knowledge. their philosophy in giving out blue to people who complete the program is that they have the necessary skills to defened themselves in a fight against the average joe-don't-grapple.