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    MABS Investigation Layout?

    Hey All,

    I've been reading over a couple of threads in MABS recently and it's struck me that a lot of people come to this site with a specific target in mind, some of them are agenda driven but some of them seem to simply be people who don't get how the forum works, for example:

    Meditations on Violence by Rory Miller - No BS Martial Arts

    It seems to me that this guy probably has a pretty good case as it's been supported by two other students but he's simply not savvy to the way that MABS works and because of that we have about 145 posts of internet drama and 15 with some interesting content.

    What I figure would be a reasonable way to solve this would be to come up with a template for posting accusations that we can sticky, something that gives people a structure to put their posts in and to let them convey what further evidence might be needed or if they feel they are presenting an investigation in completed form.

    I'd suggest then that when anyone posts accusation, a mod asks them to put them in the form of the template and we can then get easier, tighter discussion with a higher signal to noise ratio.

    I'm guessing the template would be something like:

    Name of the accused:
    Name of the accuser:


    Numbered list of fraudulent claims:
    Links to where the individual has made such claims: e.g. website, book and ISBN, video

    List of reasons why the claims being made are fraudulent:
    Evidence supporting the accusations of fraud: again website, book and ISBN, video, scanned certificate images

    <Or alternatively at this point>

    List of evidence the accused could produce to dismiss the accusations:


    Anyway, it probably seems like common sense to a lot of forum regulars, but to people coming in from the outside I figure that something like he list above (Except better obviously :D ) Might be helpful, and it might cut down on the work the mods in this section have to do.

    #2
    Originally posted by Slindsay
    It seems to me that this guy probably has a pretty good case as it's been supported by two other students but he's simply not savvy to the way that MABS works and because of that we have about 145 posts of internet drama and 15 with some interesting content.
    He was told specifically (as has happened in other threads) what he needed by Sam, Tem< Erran, and Myself he chose not to listen. Usually when we post the rules/template people without an agenda grumble but, they post similar to your template and give us a snide remark.

    Agenda driven people tend to ignore anything and rest on their credentials.
    This is the only part I disagree with.

    Name of the accused:
    Name of the accuser:


    Numbered list of fraudulent claims:
    Links to where the individual has made such claims: e.g. website, book and ISBN, video

    List of reasons why the claims being made are fraudulent:
    Evidence supporting the accusations of fraud: again website, book and ISBN, video, scanned certificate images

    <Or alternatively at this point>

    List of evidence the accused could produce to dismiss the accusations:


    Anyway, it probably seems like common sense to a lot of forum regulars, but to people coming in from the outside I figure that something like he list above (Except better obviously :D ) Might be helpful, and it might cut down on the work the mods in this section have to do.
    I really do like this list.

    Comment


      #3
      I couldn't agree more.

      A bad signal-to noise ratio conceals lies and obscures truth. Establishing templates, standards of proof, etc. as "Do's" to complement the "Dont's" would help honest contributors get to the point and prove their cases without getting bogged down in endless back-and-forth flaming.

      It would also help from the perspective of someone asking questions, as opposed to answering them. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who's noticed the strategy of fraudsters who post here: 1) Avoid the important questions by focusing on irrelevant issues, and when the people asking the questions get pissed off, 2) point at their newer, harsher words as proof of persecution or "bashing" and 3) claim that said bias excuses them from addressing the real issues that have been raised.

      As much fun as it is to verbally beat the stuffing out of liars, frauds, and idiots, I think that a damning and concise thread that winds up among the first few Google results is more devastating than any witty barb.
      Originally posted by Emevas
      Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by TheRuss
        I couldn't agree more.

        A bad signal-to noise ratio conceals lies and obscures truth. Establishing templates, standards of proof, etc. as "Do's" to complement the "Dont's" would help honest contributors get to the point and prove their cases without getting bogged down in endless back-and-forth flaming.

        It would also help from the perspective of someone asking questions, as opposed to answering them. I'm sure I'm not the only person here who's noticed the strategy of fraudsters who post here: 1) Avoid the important questions by focusing on irrelevant issues, and when the people asking the questions get pissed off, 2) point at their newer, harsher words as proof of persecution or "bashing" and 3) claim that said bias excuses them from addressing the real issues that have been raised.

        As much fun as it is to verbally beat the stuffing out of liars, frauds, and idiots, I think that a damning and concise thread that winds up among the first few Google results is more devastating than any witty barb.
        True. I also like this idea. Standardizing MABS threads can only make them look more professional. I think it's a good idea all around.

        Comment


          #5
          Actually, MABS is cleaner than it used to be. Thing is, people ignore the rules regardless of the template.

          I would like it as a sticky.

          You'd actually be surprised at the amount of MABS threads moved to, Trollshido, YMAS, noobietown or one of the TMA forums.

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by It is Fake
            Actually, MABS is cleaner than it used to be. Thing is, people ignore the rules regardless of the template.

            I would like it as a sticky.

            You'd actually be surprised at the amount of MABS threads moved to, Trollshido, YMAS, noobietown or one of the TMA forums.
            I agree with all this, the fact is I would imagine that the majority of the threads arrive at an accurate conclusion anyway, I just think that standardizing it (Standardizing might not be the right word though) means they can end the right way quicker and be easier for everyone to read through.

            I think another few things that would need to be addressed in the form but the basic outline works as for the majority of accusations we get in MABS, e.g.

            False qualifications/Rank
            Claims of military service
            Fake Fight records
            Street fight anecdotes
            Claims of magical powers
            Misleading contracts

            I'm trying to think though if theres anything else that you routinely see appearing in MABS that might not work in the format above?

            Oh, I also think it would also need a section where the accuser states what their relationship with the accused is, that might steer away some of the people with an axe to grind.

            And maybe in addition, include a bit at the end where the accuser can add any extra information/personal anecdotes and opinion.

            Comment


              #7
              I like this idea of the template. It's a good way to go.

              I just have a question about this part:

              List of reasons why the claims being made are fraudulent:
              Evidence supporting the accusations of fraud: again website, book and ISBN, video, scanned certificate images
              When you're dealing with a martial art with potentially fake lineage, how do you produce evidence that this is fraudulent?

              Let's take the infamous ninjer example: Hatsumi has not yet shown proof of his ninja lineage (Togakure Ryu) being any older than his teacher Takamatsu. And there doesn't seem to be much in the way of independent verification of Togakure Ryu's existence.

              Does this count as evidence of fraud? Or does it simply mean that there is no evidence either way?

              The defense that the ninjers often use is that "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". When does this defense hold up and when does it break down?

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by shmuel
                I like this idea of the template. It's a good way to go.

                I just have a question about this part:



                When you're dealing with a martial art with potentially fake lineage, how do you produce evidence that this is fraudulent?

                Let's take the infamous ninjer example: Hatsumi has not yet shown proof of his ninja lineage (Togakure Ryu) being any older than his teacher Takamatsu. And there doesn't seem to be much in the way of independent verification of Togakure Ryu's existence.

                Does this count as evidence of fraud? Or does it simply mean that there is no evidence either way?

                The defense that the ninjers often use is that "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". When does this defense hold up and when does it break down?
                I think in cases like this where the evidence to back an individuals claims is solely in their possession and not in the public domain (As I believe many MA grades are if you know where to look) Then the guy filling in the template has to say that it's the:

                <Or alternatively at this point>

                List of evidence the accused could produce to dismiss the accusations:


                In cases like this, I think onus falls on the person being accused to produce something to back up their claims and i don't thin that's unreasonable. If you think about it in the real world, it's like someone claiming to be a Doctor but then refusing to provide any evidence, it's more than suspect really and the alternative is accepting every claim on face value.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yeah, I would include fake histories on that list. There are so many frauds coming out with made up martial arts they claim come from ninja/vikings/spartans/Native Americans/Africa/Asia/Europe ect. It distorts History and in most cases it is also a form of cultural exploitation so I would include it.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I'm no fan of fake histories, believe me, but I'm just being devil's advocate here.

                    What happens when the person who *may* have lied about the history is dead, and his successor believed what he was told.

                    This is the position where Hatsumi (ninja guy) is. He didn't come up with the story of the lineage. He got it from his teacher called Takamatsu, who is dead.

                    What do we do in cases like this?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by shmuel
                      I'm no fan of fake histories, believe me, but I'm just being devil's advocate here.

                      What happens when the person who *may* have lied about the history is dead, and his successor believed what he was told.

                      This is the position where Hatsumi (ninja guy) is. He didn't come up with the story of the lineage. He got it from his teacher called Takamatsu, who is dead.

                      What do we do in cases like this?
                      That is indeed a gray area. I guest the only thing to do would be to show said person solid proof that their teacher lied to them. If they refuse to recognize the truth then you can put them at fault spreading lies. Also most of the time false histories usually correspond to bad techniques anyways. Thats the best answer I can come up with right now.

                      You should also take into consideration that some students be signing up for classes based on the history of the martial art and/or school presented to them by the teacher. So in a way false histories are also false advertising wether the teacher knows it or not.
                      Last edited by A.M.; 7/05/2008 7:33pm, .

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by A.M.
                        most of the time false histories usually correspond to bad techniques
                        This. Someone can be competent without having credentials, but the burden is on them to prove their competence. If someone knowingly lies about their credentials, they're a con artist and don't deserve any money or time. If someone unknowingly repeats false credentials, they're not a fraud, but it's their responsibility to honestly investigate questions raised, set the record straight based on what they discover, and prove their competence, usually by valid credentials.
                        Originally posted by Emevas
                        Downstreet on the flip-flop, timepants.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by TheRuss
                          This. Someone can be competent without having credentials, but the burden is on them to prove their competence. If someone knowingly lies about their credentials, they're a con artist and don't deserve any money or time. If someone unknowingly repeats false credentials, they're not a fraud, but it's their responsibility to honestly investigate questions raised, set the record straight based on what they discover, and prove their competence, usually by valid credentials.
                          Agreed. This would also mean it would be the teachers responsibility to figure what credentials (if any) the teacher who taught him the false history/lineage/credentials actually had. Once the teacher has done this he can correct his school's curriculum and also show that even though his teacher was a con he/she still has integraty.
                          Last edited by A.M.; 7/05/2008 10:15pm, .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            One of the things that helps is competition. If it turns out my style came from a fake master but, the people I trained place well that helps.

                            I've always wondered if this led to the sudden surge in schools that were "to deadly" or "to secretive" to compete.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              It is a good idea to have some kind of format for investigation.

                              Generally it should go something like this...

                              Introduction:
                              -name of the individual and general background
                              -ranks, claims, fight record, etc.

                              Body:
                              -Brake down the claims into categories. And then provide evidence that disproves the claims.

                              So, explain the claim, provide a link where they said it, and then provide evidence that disproves it. Do this with every claim you can disprove. Also include any evidence you find that supports their claims. If they claim to be a BB in Karate and are, then say so. This shows that your article is not simply an attack piece.

                              Conclusion:
                              -Restate your evidence and thesis.

                              Its the same method used in writing any paper.

                              Thesis, supporting evidence, conclusion.

                              Some examples from shit I have done...

                              Ray Ellingsen

                              Harley Reagan
                              Last edited by Olorin; 7/05/2008 10:48pm, .

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