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To see past the challenge match, hope to not "reinvent the wheel" here

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    To see past the challenge match, hope to not "reinvent the wheel" here

    Yes this was inspired by the Matt Thornton thread, which, interesting as it was, could have been a lot more polite to say the least, especially when people refer to a man of such valid experience. My point is this, in the contemporary world of martial arts and even through history there is an over emphasis, unfortunate as far as I'm concerned, on who (individual or collective, read "training background") can defeat who. Certainly this is one extremely important facet of martial arts, yet certainly not the be all and end all.
    These days whenever one asserts the value of a martial arts (aside from some obscure "spiritual value") they are invited to try it out in single combat. This assumes the false notion that if a stylist A is better equipped to fight in single combat than stylist B, then stylist A is better equipped to SURVIVE (i.e. not necessarily defeat an attacker during) a real combat situation. Owing to different focus in training, to me this is not always the case.
    Don't think for a second I do not appreciate the value of the duel, there is just more to martial arts than this.

    #2
    May i suggest that competing is putting one facet of your training to the test? Likewise, being good at it dosn't cover the entire spectrum of self defence.

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      #3
      YES! so very true. If we look purely at sports bouts thats exactly why i hate these notions of "he's the man, beat him and you will be" that everyone seems so hung up on.

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        #4
        As great as all the spiritual and philisophical stuff sounds, the fact is, if you are training in a MARTIAL art, you SHOULD be learning to protect your self, if you aren't, there are BETTER modes of training for exercise and there are BETTER paths to spiritual enlightement.
        If after training in a MA for 10 years of your life, when you finally need your skills to save you bacon or the well being, maybe even life of someone you love, and those skills are not there, what have you been doing???

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          #5
          I think one of the BIGGEST problems is the lack of knowing the differnce between competition on combat, between fighting in the ring and to save your ass.
          Its not about technique or style, a good fighter can make ANYTHIN work, its about mental attitude, it's about real life training, being able to handle the realization that you are in a fight for your life... competition does not teach you that.
          Competition is 1 part of a very braod equation.

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            #6
            The other things about martial arts i refer to here are not the spiritual (though these are another matter). I refer to weapons retention, awareness of the possible intervention of others when dealing with a single attacker, and escape/evasion methods. These are irrelevent in the ring or cage (ha less a spectator jumps in i suppose but you see my point) and crucial everywhere else.

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              #7
              "Self preservation" and "fighting" are different things.

              This is were the whole "Str33t!" arguement comes from.
              "You realise the transformations give a man enough strength to destroy a truck with his bare hands!?
              YOU HAVE BETRAYED ME, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE MANNER!!" - KiWarrior

              "Sport ? That kind of thing's not my bag baby!" - Sammy Franco

              "This system was developed with the help of notible BJJ fighter Ribbon Muchado." - "Sifu" Anthony Iglesias

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                #8
                Oh boy...here it goes. Dude, "weapons retention" is hardly a reliable component of ANY TMA training, and it's pretty much axiomatic that firearms disarms aren't part of any "traditional" martial art. I can't think of any MA that teaches evasion/escape, unless you just mean "dodging the opponent". When was the last time you drilled climbing straight up a wall? Or flipping a chain link fence? Not sure how aikido drills, kata, or kung fu sets will provide you with any of that.
                Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the fuck I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog

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                  #9
                  By evasion yeah i mean getting away from attacker regardless if you would call them "beaten" so as to live. I don't mean ninja stuff excuse my lack of clarrification. And the unarmed projections of aikido (which are geared to getting an attacker AWAY from you, and busting them up in the process of course) include a great many that people dismiss as "unrealistic" as they are trained against attackers that grab your arms and don't let go, much like someone grabbing an armto stop it from reaching a holster for just one example. Theres a lot of weapons retention in aikido, hence jo and bokken.

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                    #10
                    And the unarmed projections of aikido (which are geared to getting an attacker AWAY from you, and busting them up in the process of course) include a great many that people dismiss as "unrealistic" as they are trained against attackers that grab your arms and don't let go, much like someone grabbing an armto stop it from reaching a holster for just one example. Theres a lot of weapons retention in aikido, hence jo and bokken.
                    Snicker.

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                      #11
                      I think I agree with the points here, but I'm too sleepy, so I'll come back later.
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                        #12
                        Certainly this is one extremely important facet of martial arts, yet certainly not the be all and end all.
                        I'm not sure what to make of this statement. You think it is extremely important. But not the end all and be all. Okay, so what is the end all and be all of martial arts and why?

                        These days whenever one asserts the value of a martial arts (aside from some obscure "spiritual value") they are invited to try it out in single combat.
                        When they assert a combative value to it, yes. And why not? If you say your MA taches you to fight, you should be able to fight, no?

                        This assumes the false notion that if a stylist A is better equipped to fight in single combat than stylist B, then stylist A is better equipped to SURVIVE (i.e. not necessarily defeat an attacker during) a real combat situation.
                        Why is that a false assumption? If someone can't use their MA to beat a single opponent, what makes you think they'd be able to use it to beat 3? Doesn't make sense. Who is going to be a better streetfighter, someone who can fight in a ring, or someone who gets their butt handed to them in ring fights?

                        Regards,
                        Matt

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                          #13
                          Originally posted by The Wastrel
                          Oh boy...here it goes. Dude, "weapons retention" is hardly a reliable component of ANY TMA training, and it's pretty much axiomatic that firearms disarms aren't part of any "traditional" martial art. I can't think of any MA that teaches evasion/escape, unless you just mean "dodging the opponent". When was the last time you drilled climbing straight up a wall? Or flipping a chain link fence? Not sure how aikido drills, kata, or kung fu sets will provide you with any of that.
                          don't the ninjitsu people do this kind of stuff? ;)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Yo. SMF

                            good to have another aikidoka on this here forum; however, aikido weapons training, imo, is neither realistic nor practical it is just for show to satisfy test requirements. Do this mean it is inherently bad, no, in fact *if* you were able to pull off the distance and timing you could easily disarm someone. But, I wouldn't bring it up as an example of street survival techniques as the probability of success is, once again--imo, very low.

                            I do know however that certain aikido principles/ techniques are very street effective and reliable and we can discuss our opinions on those as much as you want.

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                              #15
                              If they do it's not fighting, it's running away and jumping over things, which IMHO is a very good approach to self presevation, but it's not fighting.
                              "You realise the transformations give a man enough strength to destroy a truck with his bare hands!?
                              YOU HAVE BETRAYED ME, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE MANNER!!" - KiWarrior

                              "Sport ? That kind of thing's not my bag baby!" - Sammy Franco

                              "This system was developed with the help of notible BJJ fighter Ribbon Muchado." - "Sifu" Anthony Iglesias

                              Comment

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