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    10th Dan Question

    Who graded Helio Gracie? I've seen lots of references to him being a 10th Dan. Is he graded or does he go without rank?
    Last edited by BomberH; 1/04/2008 8:52pm, . Reason: Changed title

    #2
    When no one can kick your ass I guess you can promote yourself to 10th Dan. I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to call him on it.

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      #3
      Originally posted by BomberH
      Who graded Helio Gracie? I've seen lots of references to him being a 10th Dan. Is he graded or does he go without rank?
      That does brind up an intersting question.

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        #4
        I was under the impression that the founder of a system was granted that ranking when the system was officially recognised. After that, it is passed to the senior practitioner by the previous 10th dan.
        If you can't laugh at yourself,
        Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

        The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


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          #5
          Same question can be asked regarding Funakoshi, Kano, etc.

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            #6
            classic chicken and the egg dilema

            i firmley belive one should never promote himself even if he did create it, esp in the beginning, lol grandmaster,professor,sifu etc and have one student lol
            in our association, our professor was a chief instructor with almost 20 years in the C.H.A.3. Kenpo karate association, whwn we broke away to form our own (being located in the southeast us and cha3 being mostly in hawaii, having over 30 instructors at the time), so we could advance our knowledge, his entire instructor body offically promoted him to the Title Professor, then he promoted our asst Professor, some would cry foul at this point, but the first professor has to come from somewhere.

            someone gathers knowledge and advanced ranks in arts and fuses them then instructs, as his association grows so can his rank, but the be a 10th dan to use traditional lingo, and no body of instructors and students etc is not a true 10th dan

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              #7
              Originally posted by sempaiman
              Same question can be asked regarding Funakoshi, Kano, etc.

              While they were living, neither Jigoro Kano nor Gichin Funakoshi ever held rank in their respective styles they "founded". Posthumously, Kano was awarded a 12th Dan by the Kodokan and Funakoshi was awarded 10th Dan by his "organization" (whose name escapes me).

              Kano can frequently be seen in pictures wearing a white belt. The pictures of him wearing a black belt were him wearing the rank of the Jujitsu styles he learned.
              Last edited by Tom Kagan; 1/04/2008 11:29am, .
              Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
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                #8
                POTENTIALLY FAKE 10TH DAN

                While they were living, neither Jigoro Kano nor Gichin Funakoshi ever held rank in their respective styles they "founded". Posthumously, Kano was awarded a 12th Dan by the Kodokan and Funakoshi was awarded 10th Dan by his "organization" (whose name escapes me).
                Tom you are correct Kano went without grade.

                So what do we have on Helio Gracie:

                1. Potentially self graded / graded by friends with lower ranks

                2. Factually incorrect lineage and history (i.e. Maeda = Kodokan not JuJitsu)

                LET THE INQUISITION BEGIN

                Who's going to email this Helio Gracie and ask to see copies of his dan grade certificates 1st through to 10th.

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                  #9
                  I always thought it would be a matter of politics. Don't give people the same rank you'd give yourself, or a rank easily attainable. If people get to your rank, they'd start second guessing you.

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                    #10
                    I am regularly hearing rumors from people that have trained with him that Helio wears a blue belt to teach. This is as recent as a few years ago at his club in Brazil. This may have changed though as it seems Rorion is very rank conscious.

                    The dan ranks in BJJ are a very recent addition to the art, and GJJ has only in the last few weeks given out GJJ Black Belt ranks to non-Brazilians.

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                      #11
                      Originally posted by BomberH
                      Tom you are correct Kano went without grade.

                      So what do we have on Helio Gracie:

                      1. Potentially self graded / graded by friends with lower ranks

                      2. Factually incorrect lineage and history (i.e. Maeda = Kodokan not JuJitsu)

                      LET THE INQUISITION BEGIN

                      Who's going to email this Helio Gracie and ask to see copies of his dan grade certificates 1st through to 10th.
                      Keep in mind that Kano was very Western in his approach. While I wouldn't call him an apologist, he came pretty close. Funikashi was also trying to appease the Japanese in his quest to take Okinawan indigenous Te and make it more Pan Asian. O Sensei, who was a more traditional teacher is a better example when considering why a rank and title is an issue in a traditional Japanese art.

                      The reason Kano did not discuss rank in Judo was probably because he wanted to disabuse people of the notion that arts considered traditional Japanese Military Arts could be effective against the new thoroughly modern art of JUdo. If you read some of the original Judo Texts prior to World War 2 they sound positively arrogant. There are many references to the old Ju Jutsu which has been perfected in Judo.

                      Kano wanted the image to be different for Judo so he didn't emphasize the traditional titles and honorifics, it was not out of a respect for the hierarchy that would have one rank oneself as a higher dan because they founded the art.

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                        #12
                        It may be that Rorion asked his dad to wear the 10th dan. He deserves it, no questions asked. Or, it may be that several 10th dan from Brazil elevated him to that rank. Fact is he has it now .

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                          #13
                          This whole Helio 10th Dan thing sounds like classic Bullshido to me. Dodgy self promotions and then supporters saying "hey, you should train with the guy and his system. Then you'll see he deserves the grade etc etc....."

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                            #14
                            Ultimately, he's a 10th Dan if he says he is and the value of that is determined by his demonstrated skill and the value of his students. There are plenty of people with 'official' X Dan ranks in shitty MAs who can't fight for toffee but can produce certificates from signed by lineage holders from a long-line of 'officially graded' people who also can't fight.

                            What's the point ?

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                              #15
                              Originally posted by Cullion
                              Ultimately, he's a 10th Dan if he says he is and the value of that is determined by his demonstrated skill and the value of his students. There are plenty of people with 'official' X Dan ranks in shitty MAs who can't fight for toffee but can produce certificates from signed by lineage holders from a long-line of 'officially graded' people who also can't fight.

                              What's the point ?
                              The point is.. rank is entirely unimportant if you can indeed fight, so why have it in the first place and why claim 10th dan.

                              As soon as I see people using these grades (regardless of their fighting ability) I immediately wonder about their motive and agenda. *IF* they are indeed good fighters and no one is doubting that, why does one need to be a 10th dan ? The answer is simple they don't unless they're marketing their school or their business in the commercial world.

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