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    "Dragon Dojo stays in the shadows" or "How the heck am I supposed to review schools?"

    So, some of you may have seen another thread I started over at YMAS, a poll that asked which school in the Panama City, FL area I should go and do a Dojo Review on.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62055

    Dragon Dojo was, by leaps and bounds, the winner, so I began to open up lines of communication with it's owner and head instructor, Robert Wiest. I was unable to get in touch with him for about a week, but yesterday, I managed to get him on the phone.

    Summarized conversation is as follows:

    KAI: Hello, sir. I'd like to come to your school and do an objective review that will be published at a website forum that I frequent.
    ROB: Huh, a forum? That's where everybody can talk about things, right?
    KAI: Yah, yah it is.
    ROB: Ooooh, well, ya see, I've been to one of these online forums that you're talking about, and I can't say I liked it very much. It was very negative, and people were saying things that weren't very nice. I mean, being a martial artist requires a person to have good morals and judgement, as well, so all that negativity was really just identifying them as not being actual martial artists, just guys who fight.
    KAI: Right... well, I assure you, this forum has it's share of frivolous nonsense, but at it's core is a community of people that are passionate about martial arts. There are people of all martial backgrounds on this site. We've got Kung Fu, Karate, TKD, hell, we even have Ninjas. Most of the focus is on competitive use of these, though.
    ROB: Yah, I see what you're saying, but it just kind of puts me off, ya know? I mean, you ever watch that one show with the guys who fight in the UFC and they live in that house and drink beer and fight each other? If it's like that, I wouldn't want to be a part of that, ya know? I'd actually rather you not write anything about me at all just yet.
    KAI: So, at this point, you're not inclined to have me come to your school?
    ROB: No, not at this time. How about this: send me the link to the forum, and I'll think about it.
    KAI: I see. I'll send you that email immediatly.
    ROB: Thanks. Hey, look, if you wanna come and take a free class or two, that's fine.
    KAI: Really? That sounds great. Tomorrow, then?
    ROB: Sure, sounds good.
    KAI: I bet there are few people who would be interested to know that I'm indeed visiting your school. Mind if I post that info on the forum?
    ROB: I'd rather you not, I don't want my name out there in the open until I'm sure about this, ok?
    KAI: Wait... really? I'm just going to say that I'll be visiting your school. I won't post a review or anything if you don't want me to.
    ROB: Still, I'd prefer that you didn't.
    KAI: Uh... ok, then.
    ROB: Are we cool? I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, it's just that the internet is an angry place, ya know?
    KAI: Ya, yah, I get what you're saying.
    ROB: Ok, cool.
    KAI: So, see you tomorrow, then?
    ROB: Looking forward to it!
    KAI: Awesome, see you then. Bye.
    ROB: Bye.

    So, today, I was ready to drive 45 min to his school, when I got this email:

    My partners and I have discussed your request. We've looked at your website and upon further discussion, we are not comfortable with what you do with your website. We do not wish to participate in it. We appreciate the opportunity, however, being that you are not interested in signing up for classes, we believe it would be a waste of your time to come to our school. We are not comfortable having a representative of this website at our school. Thanks again for the opportunity. Peace and happiness on your journey.

    Have a great day! Robbie



    www.waycenter.com

    1-888-353-9414
    To which I responded:
    Sir,

    I am severely disappointed at this decision. I feel it is a personal insult that you would invite me to your school and then, through email, inform me that because I am not a source of income, I am not welcome at your school. Although I was intending to honor your request to not discuss these matters at Bullshido, the level of disrespect you have shown me has caused me to reconsider that decision, and thusly, I will indeed be discussing this on an open forum. You have already stated that the site is irrelevant to you, and that you do not care if I write positive or negative things about you or your school. This is good, because I will most assuredly be writing negative things about you and your school.

    To each their own journeypeace and happiness on your journey.
    So, while we could ENDLESSLY get into the Dragon Dojo, I have a different question...

    How am I supposed to expose BS when the BSers run scared? Is it to the point where I have to go stealth? I mean, seriously, is dishonesty the ony way to get into their school?
    Last edited by Airman Kai; 11/15/2007 3:01pm, .




    #2
    I consider this pictorial more than adequate proof that a fairly adanced LARPfest has developed under his watch.






    The Code of the Ukejutsu Martial Artist




    Comment


      #3
      channel the spirit of bunyip

      Comment


        #4
        Unfortunately there are two problems.

        1 - There are poopheads who will not let you openly come to their schoole

        2- There are poo heads who believe all the same old BS. they come to this site, see the language and the images and immediately get turned off. You know the type: "I don't like hip-hop, I mean all the cussing and negativity". If you are old and know nothing about hip-hop that is how you view the whole genre. I can easily see someone coming to BS.net and getting the same response.

        Perhaps direct them to BS.com and BS.org. (Unless you already did that).

        I would just go watch a class at a school first. Then after you watch talk with them. That way you can post either way, but still give them the ability to discuss/defend/explain anything which they may perceive as insulting.
        There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.

        Comment


          #5
          But I feel so cheated! Look at how I could have earned my black belt in multiple arts, and cicumvented actually learning stuff by just learning a made up martial arts style!


          [[[Combat
          [Weapons
          [Traditional Martial Arts
          [Mental Strategy
          [Natural Health
          [
          Why go anywhere else when Dragon Dojo Martial Arts gives you the best of all in one place and in one comprehensive, revolutionary martial arts system!

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          Judo- The Way of Gentleness
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          Weapons Training

          Mini Dragons & Kids Karate: Classes are geared to young martial artists and their needs. These classes mainly cover the sports and traditional karate categories . We work on building self-confidence, manners, discipline, balance, flexibility and coordination. The kids receive personalized attention and learn a practical martial arts program. Classes are geared to young martial artists and their needs.

          Ukejutsu for Adults: Classes are geared to adult martial artists and their needs. Most of us in the United States would not be privy to this discipline of training. Much like the Shaolin warrior monk, the trainee apprentices as a martial artist rather then just taking a karate class. This program for teens and adults covers all categories and can serve to achieve many goals, such as training in self defense, building confidence, learning traditional martial arts, and even studying to one day have his/her own martial arts facility. The trainee will learn usable martial art skills and get in the best shape of his/her life while facilitating a harmony of mind, body, and spirit.
          Combat Tactics:

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          Earn multiple Black Belts in Uke Ki Shin Ryu.


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          Last edited by Airman Kai; 11/15/2007 3:15pm, .



          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by airman kai
            So, some of you may have seen another thread I started over at YMAS, a poll that asked which school in the Panama City, FL area I should go and do a Dojo Review on.

            http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=62055

            Dragon Dojo was, by leaps and bounds, the winner, so I began to open up lines of communication with it's owner and head instructor, Robert Wiest. I was unable to get in touch with him for about a week, but yesterday, I managed to get him on the phone.

            Summarized conversation is as follows:

            KAI: Hello, sir. I'd like to come to your school and do an objective review that will be published at a website forum that I frequent.
            ROB: Huh, a forum? That's where everybody can talk about things, right?
            KAI: Yah, yah it is.
            ROB: Ooooh, well, ya see, I've been to one of these online forums that you're talking about, and I can't say I liked it very much. It was very negative, and people were saying things that weren't very nice. I mean, being a martial artist requires a person to have good morals and judgement, as well, so all that negativity was really just identifying them as not being actual martial artists, just guys who fight.
            KAI: Right... well, I assure you, this forum has it's share of frivolous nonsense, but at it's core is a community of people that are passionate about martial arts. There are people of all martial backgrounds on this site. We've got Kung Fu, Karate, TKD, hell, we even have Ninjas. Most of the focus is on competitive use of these, though.
            ROB: Yah, I see what you're saying, but it just kind of puts me off, ya know? I mean, you ever watch that one show with the guys who fight in the UFC and they live in that house and drink beer and fight each other? If it's like that, I wouldn't want to be a part of that, ya know? I'd actually rather you not write anything about me at all just yet.
            KAI: So, at this point, you're not inclined to have me come to your school?
            ROB: No, not at this time. How about this: send me the link to the forum, and I'll think about it.
            KAI: I see. I'll send you that email immediatly.
            ROB: Thanks. Hey, look, if you wanna come and take a free class or two, that's fine.
            KAI: Really? That sounds great. Tomorrow, then?
            ROB: Sure, sounds good.
            KAI: I bet there are few people who would be interested to know that I'm indeed visiting your school. Mind if I post that info on the forum?
            ROB: I'd rather you not, I don't want my name out there in the open until I'm sure about this, ok?
            KAI: Wait... really? I'm just going to say that I'll be visiting your school. I won't post a review or anything if you don't want me to.
            ROB: Still, I'd prefer that you didn't.
            KAI: Uh... ok, then.
            ROB: Are we cool? I'm not trying to be a jerk, here, it's just that the internet is an angry place, ya know?
            KAI: Ya, yah, I get what you're saying.
            ROB: Ok, cool.
            KAI: So, see you tomorrow, then?
            ROB: Looking forward to it!
            KAI: Awesome, see you then. Bye.
            ROB: Bye.

            So, today, I was ready to drive 45 min to his school, when I got this email:



            To which I responded:


            So, while we could ENDLESSLY get into the Dragon Dojo, I have a different question...

            How am I supposed to expose BS when the BSers run scared? Is it to the point where I have to go stealth? I mean, seriously, is dishonesty the ony way to get into their school?

            You raise a very important issue. Make no mistake about it either, it will come to this issue time and time again if allowed to do so, under an assumption that somoene who desires to post information about a school, must be transparent about it.

            I can only tell you that as somoene whom has taught Ethics and otherwise has an interest in these types of questions..... I don't see any reason why you as a prospective student has to be transparent. Before I continue, it is worth mentioning that that this similar issue was broached on another thread involving a teacher making claims.

            1) What if this guy is a really good teacher? That is theoretically as much a possability as the other

            2) You are a consumer, you have a right to share information. People go to restaurants and post bad reviews on the web all the time, is this immoral? So I can complain about the service at Chevy's but I can't at the MA school next door?

            3) Your disclosure queers the deal!!! Its what you ran into in this situation. You are better served operating without giving your purpose away, thats what secret shoppers are for as well.

            4) Ethically you serve a higher purpose. It is not about you it is about consumers who might sign a contract, or get injured, or learn something which gives him/her a false sense of security. This gives you certain privaleges.

            5) as a form of media the internet is an open loop. Martial arts teachers can respond to critiscism rendered. They are just as strong a voice as anybody on a forum provided they provide information that supports a conclusion, and are not simply trying to find a way to peddle something that is not what it should be.


            What right is given to Fakirs and other pretenders? Harry Houdini was allowed to expose these types with any means necessary for Scientific America.... why do they deserve any more consideration than any other market for goods and services?

            Martial arts is one of those types of affairs where people are allowed to sneak under the radar and there is no ethical of logical reason for this allowance. You charge a price you deserve to be evaluated... period!! Otherwise don't teach commercially.
            This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

            The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.

            Comment


              #7
              AK, The website says they offer "Specialized Programs for Adult Cover: UKEJUTSU (THE ART OF RECEIVING) which includes aspects of: Ninjutsu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, The Art Of The Samurai, Chi Focus, Iron Body, Weapons Training, and MORE! "
              Yet on the instructors page they have only photos and names. There is no listing of any training, certification, fight records, really no information at all. Obviously a more in depth investigation would be required to throw a "Bullshido" label on it but there are enough warning signs there to say why bother. I love the photos, they should be captioned:" Learn to stand outside, WITHOUT A COAT!" Anyway, thanks for serving in the AF my brother, I just retired in Jan after 21 years of Active and Air Nat'l Guard service (Security Forces).
              Last edited by Vorpal; 11/15/2007 3:18pm, .

              Comment


                #8
                NEVERMIND>>>WTF IS THIS:

                DimMak/Chi Combat
                Who needs benefit of the doubt at this point?
                There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Vorpal
                  Anyway, thanks for serving in the AF my brother, I just retired in Jan after 21 years of Active and Air Nat'l Guard service (Security Forces).
                  And to you as well, bro. SF can be rough stuff.

                  Originally posted by cyrijl
                  Who needs benefit of the doubt at this point?
                  Nobody, that's who.
                  Last edited by Airman Kai; 11/15/2007 3:21pm, .



                  Comment


                    #10
                    I think what you have done suffices for proof of Bull.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Personally, I think telling someone you are doing a review can sometimes cause them to act out of the normal. I'm not too sure it is a good idea to tell them there is a review. For example, I am a teacher at a community college. I know that when you have someone sitting in your class to review you that you change the way you do things. You prepare more, you give your students warning before hand, you dress nicer, and you go out of your way to look good. Some colleges are actually recording every class because of this issue.

                      Maybe you should just act interested, go visit and train, then ask permission to post a review?
                      "a martial art that has no rules is nothing but violence" - Kenji Tomiki

                      Comment


                        #12
                        I hate what queer eye for the stright guy has done to our country
                        1. Black uniforms are required for adult class.
                        2. White uniforms are required for kids classes.
                        3. Advanced youth may wear black gi pants.
                        4. Uniforms must be clean and pressed.
                        5. T-shirt or sports bra may be worn under the uniform. T-shirt or sports bra must match uniform or color of current belt.
                        6. Black belt students may wear black, white or a combination of black, red and white.
                        Out side of comps, my judo instructor doesn't care what kind of gi you wear. We all wear plain, non-pimped white gis becasue no one wants to look like an ass. On the other hand in bjj we have all sorts of chaos going on. But in both sides, none of it is done because of rules.

                        These are the kinds of issues that having a fair review can bring to the forefront. An owner can come on and at least comment on why these things are done. Now when people google his page...guess what is going tocome up?..We see this more and more

                        In order to increase the ranking. Florida,Florida,Florida,Florida.Wado Ryu. Judo.Martial Arts.
                        Last edited by cyrijl; 11/15/2007 3:29pm, .
                        There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Dsimon3387
                          You raise a very important issue. Make no mistake about it either, it will come to this issue time and time again if allowed to do so, under an assumption that somoene who desires to post information about a school, must be transparent about it.

                          I can only tell you that as somoene whom has taught Ethics and otherwise has an interest in these types of questions..... I don't see any reason why you as a prospective student has to be transparent. Before I continue, it is worth mentioning that that this similar issue was broached on another thread involving a teacher making claims.

                          1) What if this guy is a really good teacher? That is theoretically as much a possability as the other

                          2) You are a consumer, you have a right to share information. People go to restaurants and post bad reviews on the web all the time, is this immoral? So I can complain about the service at Chevy's but I can't at the MA school next door?

                          3) Your disclosure queers the deal!!! Its what you ran into in this situation. You are better served operating without giving your purpose away, thats what secret shoppers are for as well.

                          4) Ethically you serve a higher purpose. It is not about you it is about consumers who might sign a contract, or get injured, or learn something which gives him/her a false sense of security. This gives you certain privaleges.

                          5) as a form of media the internet is an open loop. Martial arts teachers can respond to critiscism rendered. They are just as strong a voice as anybody on a forum provided they provide information that supports a conclusion, and are not simply trying to find a way to peddle something that is not what it should be.


                          What right is given to Fakirs and other pretenders? Harry Houdini was allowed to expose these types with any means necessary for Scientific America.... why do they deserve any more consideration than any other market for goods and services?

                          Martial arts is one of those types of affairs where people are allowed to sneak under the radar and there is no ethical of logical reason for this allowance. You charge a price you deserve to be evaluated... period!! Otherwise don't teach commercially.
                          As much as we disagree this sums up my feelings as well.
                          Also FP, I don't feel you need permission to post a review.

                          I think you should provide a link to your review when you post. I agree with the rest of your post. I've seen it happened, been part of it, and did it when I taught.
                          Last edited by It is Fake; 11/15/2007 3:43pm, .

                          Comment


                            #14
                            You don't tell a restaurant you are doing a review of their food.
                            There is no cheating, there is only jiu-jitsu.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              I agree with the posters above in that you shouldn't let them know beforehand that you're planning on doing a review because it can affect how they act.

                              You don't have to lie, just don't advertise the fact. You also don't have to ask permission afterwards to post about it, you are a consumer giving his opinion on a service, and they are welcome to come here and attempt to refute any points you make.

                              PS. Florida,Chi,Wacko
                              HTFU and join Bullshido on Fitocracy!
                              https://www.fitocracy.com/group/2988/

                              Comment

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