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    #61

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      #62
      Originally posted by DdlR
      Great posts...thanks!

      Comment


        #63
        Originally posted by Lozenge123
        Dingirfecho, the Tinku tradition sounds interesting. The wikipedia link that you provide, however, only states that Tinkus are practiced in Bolivia...what about Peru?

        By the way, the Flores book does talk about the use of Rumi Maki in the context of "ritual" contests that take place during native festivals. There is also a still photo in the book (taken from documentary video footage) showing natives dressed in traditional garb, engaging in a ritual fight. In this photo they are standing in the distinctive Rumi Maki posture, with forearms perpendicular to the ground (NOTE: this is NOT the same footage that was already linked to in this thread). I think the Rumi Maki contests were limited to a handful of villages, and were not a widespread thing. There may be some distant connection to the Tinkus.
        Originally posted by Lozenge123
        Dingirfecho, I am very interested in the fact that you are a lineage-holder in the Qechua shamanic tradition. I have a book about the Q'ero paqos, and it is quite fascinating. Are you a pampa mesayoq or an alto mesayoq? Or are you involved in another tradition? I would definitely like to learn more about these guys if I ever make it out to your area of the world.

        All the best...
        http://www.darsana.com.ar

        Comment


          #64

          Comment


            #65
            Thanks to DCS for noting that Fray de las Casas was never in Peru. Also, thanks to iliaster for taking the time try to clarify the issue at hand.

            I want to clarify that there is no doubt in mind that:

            1. there were martial traditions native of the regions that made up the Tawantinsuyu.
            2. it is a possibility that these martial traditions survived in one way or another until recent times, perhaps even up to our current times.

            However, the claims done by the proponents of Rumi Maki are very specific, that is is a compilation of techniques original from pre-Inca times - not from colonial times, not from the time of the conquest, not even from the time of the Tawantinsuyu, but before that. It specifically mentions the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku.

            This is a very, very, very tall claim to make.

            Also, if we are to observe the development of martial arts in the world, specially among tribal/warrior nations, we well see that these develop along two lines:

            1. weapon based martial arts.
            2. wrestling/clinch based martial arts.

            Martial arts that are predominantly empty-handed/kicking come much later, usually as a refined form of combat sports. And this only occur in very specific locations, at specific times, and under very specific social circumstances.

            In all other circumstances, any elaborate striking methodology has been secondary, or at most, integrated on a strong wrestling/weapon base. It's never been the predominant focus.

            This is not the case with Rumi Maki. And altough it is always possible to see a folk art evolving into a predominantly empty-hand striking system, the rarity of this is such that any exception to the general rule is enough to make us raise an eyebrow and apply further, more aggressive scrutiny.

            This is more so when such an art makes dubios claims of antiquity.

            If the folk development of martial arts has usually be based on wrestling or weapons all over the world, why would the Americas, the Anti Plano in particular be an exception? Here in the Americas we know of at least four, perhaps five loosely defined martial traditions that we know are genuine and autoctonous.

            --- Huka Huka wrestling by the Xinguy nations in the Brazilian Amazon.
            --- Garrote Larense (a weapons-based art)
            --- Knife fighting traditions with the Gauchos (another weapons-based art)
            --- Capoeira, originally (according to some sources) a striking/weapons art.
            --- Luta Livre, a system predominantly based on wrestling (and which seems to have evolved almost independently and in isolation in Brazil)

            This is not counting all the knife and machete fighting traditions that have come and go, for which we only have scarce, annecdotal evidence (and for such reasons, I'm not taking them into account.)

            I'm also not counting what Ralph G reports (thanks again to iliaster). He's reporting something based explicitly on the clinch. This is not the case with Rumi Maki (this can be argued one way or another,though).

            So, of all those five examples listed above, only Capoeira was a striking art (with weapons mind you.)

            Four out five well-documented martial developments in the Americas are either weapons-based or wrestling-based. This mirrors what has happened in the rest of the world.

            No, let's take a look at Rumi Maki, or at least, what it is being displayed in the book. Take every single picture, every single method displayed in that book, photoshop the participants with ninja wear and tabi boots, and voila, they become indistinguisable from Ashida Kim Ninja-Do-Fu-Ryu-Jitsu-Kwon_un.

            Sadly, I'm not joking.

            No, let's apply Occam's Razor.

            A. We have an art, that claims not only to be autoctonous of the Anti Plano, but that it claims to trace its origins directly to Pre-Incan martial arts (of the Moche and Tiwanaku among others listed). This is a claim that seems extremelly unlikely, perhaps impossible to substantiate.

            B. The aforementioned art does not have a development that resembles what one would expect, in general, in a folk martial arts (weapons or wrestling base), and that it does not resemble what it's being reported by Ralph G wrote?

            C. Furthermore, the techniques look so stylized in such a particular way that their autenticity (not to mention, their practicality) seem dubious at best.

            Which is most likely? That this art really comes to us all the way down from the Moche and Tiwanaku, that it happens to be predominatly empty-handed based (a development abnormal to what we expect to see), and that has evolved into something so stylized that it just so happen to resemble the deadly Ninja Judo chop?

            Or that this is simply a fabrication?

            I think most of all know the answer to this. I have already laid out what needs to be answered to proof Rumi Maki's claim of Pre-Incan ancestry.

            It not only claims to be an autoctonous system. It not only claims to have a genealogy traced back to the 1920s. They claim an ancestry all the way down to the Moche and Tiwanaku.

            If they can't prove that, they should have no right to claim so.

            And this, apparently, seems to be beyond its proponents' comprehension.

            Comment


              #66
              Originally posted by El Neko
              This is extremely funny when you take into account that short of calling Jamie Eason a fat slut, is very, very difficult to piss off El Macho.

              oh, and Macho, you're a dishonorable man for not coming to the TD, back to the threat, it was a good read, let me know if you're going to dig a little more into this, I offer my spanish speaking mad skills for that task
              Ay hermano, I've been living in everlasting shame every since, drooling at Jamie Eason's pictures to relieve the pain. :seppuku: :seppuku: :seppuku:

              Comment


                #67
                Originally posted by Teh El Macho
                Thanks to DCS for noting that Fray de las Casas was never in Peru. Also, thanks to iliaster for taking the time try to clarify the issue at hand.

                I want to clarify that there is no doubt in mind that:

                1. there were martial traditions native of the regions that made up the Tawantinsuyu.
                2. it is a possibility that these martial traditions survived in one way or another until recent times, perhaps even up to our current times.

                However, the claims done by the proponents of Rumi Maki are very specific, that is is a compilation of techniques original from pre-Inca times - not from colonial times, not from the time of the conquest, not even from the time of the Tawantinsuyu, but before that. It specifically mentions the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku.

                This is a very, very, very tall claim to make.

                Also, if we are to observe the development of martial arts in the world, specially among tribal/warrior nations, we well see that these develop along two lines:

                1. weapon based martial arts.
                2. wrestling/clinch based martial arts.

                Martial arts that are predominantly empty-handed/kicking come much later, usually as a refined form of combat sports. And this only occur in very specific locations, at specific times, and under very specific social circumstances.

                In all other circumstances, any elaborate striking methodology has been secondary, or at most, integrated on a strong wrestling/weapon base. It's never been the predominant focus.

                This is not the case with Rumi Maki. And altough it is always possible to see a folk art evolving into a predominantly empty-hand striking system, the rarity of this is such that any exception to the general rule is enough to make us raise an eyebrow and apply further, more aggressive scrutiny.

                This is more so when such an art makes dubios claims of antiquity.

                If the folk development of martial arts has usually be based on wrestling or weapons all over the world, why would the Americas, the Anti Plano in particular be an exception? Here in the Americas we know of at least four, perhaps five loosely defined martial traditions that we know are genuine and autoctonous.

                --- Huka Huka wrestling by the Xinguy nations in the Brazilian Amazon.
                --- Garrote Larense (a weapons-based art)
                --- Knife fighting traditions with the Gauchos (another weapons-based art)
                --- Capoeira, originally (according to some sources) a striking/weapons art.
                --- Luta Livre, a system predominantly based on wrestling (and which seems to have evolved almost independently and in isolation in Brazil)

                This is not counting all the knife and machete fighting traditions that have come and go, for which we only have scarce, annecdotal evidence (and for such reasons, I'm not taking them into account.)

                I'm also not counting what Ralph G reports (thanks again to iliaster). He's reporting something based explicitly on the clinch. This is not the case with Rumi Maki (this can be argued one way or another,though).

                So, of all those five examples listed above, only Capoeira was a striking art (with weapons mind you.)

                Four out five well-documented martial developments in the Americas are either weapons-based or wrestling-based. This mirrors what has happened in the rest of the world.

                No, let's take a look at Rumi Maki, or at least, what it is being displayed in the book. Take every single picture, every single method displayed in that book, photoshop the participants with ninja wear and tabi boots, and voila, they become indistinguisable from Ashida Kim Ninja-Do-Fu-Ryu-Jitsu-Kwon_un.

                Sadly, I'm not joking.

                No, let's apply Occam's Razor.

                A. We have an art, that claims not only to be autoctonous of the Anti Plano, but that it claims to trace its origins directly to Pre-Incan martial arts (of the Moche and Tiwanaku among others listed). This is a claim that seems extremelly unlikely, perhaps impossible to substantiate.

                B. The aforementioned art does not have a development that resembles what one would expect, in general, in a folk martial arts (weapons or wrestling base), and that it does not resemble what it's being reported by Ralph G wrote?

                C. Furthermore, the techniques look so stylized in such a particular way that their autenticity (not to mention, their practicality) seem dubious at best.

                Which is most likely? That this art really comes to us all the way down from the Moche and Tiwanaku, that it happens to be predominatly empty-handed based (a development abnormal to what we expect to see), and that has evolved into something so stylized that it just so happen to resemble the deadly Ninja Judo chop?

                Or that this is simply a fabrication?

                I think most of all know the answer to this. I have already laid out what needs to be answered to proof Rumi Maki's claim of Pre-Incan ancestry.

                It not only claims to be an autoctonous system. It not only claims to have a genealogy traced back to the 1920s. They claim an ancestry all the way down to the Moche and Tiwanaku.

                If they can't prove that, they should have no right to claim so.

                And this, apparently, seems to be beyond its proponents' comprehension.

                Comment


                  #68

                  Comment


                    #69
                    I wonder who the proffesional filmmaker is? can you give more info about him? I think it would be interesting to see (although its off topic).
                    On the other hand, I have found in wikipedia a peruvian who is not related to Mr. Flores but it seems he knows something about RumiMaki http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discusi%C3%B3n:Rumi_Maki
                    But also the RM book says its practice isn't well know.
                    I found in other forum the idea that the term RumiMaki is used by some peruvians as an "urban legend", but there is a reference to its existence.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Not to be offensive, but there is people who believes in the Chupa Cabras.

                      Which forum are you referring to where some Peruvians believe in the term as an urban legend? How did the come to believe so? Are these references to its existence something that can be taken seriously, that can be evaluated?

                      And which individual of the many in that wiki discussion you are referring to? Anyways, that discussion is a disaster. No one has yet to answer the points brought forward by Pablo Jimenez since he posted them on 04:06 11 mar 2007

                      Everything else is a collection of romantic retardation. I leave you guys with the last post in that discussion. I'm too tired to translate the immense idiocy of it for those who don't speak/read Spanish. I will come back at a later time to do so, so that other people know exactly what kind of crap propels these people making these ridiculous statements:
                      Last edited by Teh El Macho; 2/15/2008 11:27am, .

                      Comment


                        #71
                        The are other points in the RM book to say. As I understand Mr. Flores makes in a humble way his exposition

                        So he doesn't claim to be the one who has all the knowledge about this way of fighting. His purpose as is said in the book is:
                        (preface, page xi)


                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Teh El Macho:

                        No, let's take a look at Rumi Maki, or at least, what it is being displayed in the book. Take every single picture, every single method displayed in that book, photoshop the participants with ninja wear and tabi boots, and voila, they become indistinguisable from Ashida Kim Ninja-Do-Fu-Ryu-Jitsu-Kwon_un.


                        This is off-topic. Also in my point of view I think it would be too stereotyped to take pictures of the people in the book with Inca clothes or disguises. But as I said this is off-topic. Teh El Macho said it too in other post:

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Teh El Macho:


                        This goes not just to you, but to the others as well. Thanks.
                        About the other autoctonous martial arts:

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Teh El Macho:


                        If the folk development of martial arts has usually be based on wrestling or weapons all over the world, why would the Americas, the Anti Plano in particular be an exception? Here in the Americas we know of at least four, perhaps five loosely defined martial traditions that we know are genuine and autoctonous.
                        --- Huka Huka wrestling by the Xinguy nations in the Brazilian Amazon.
                        --- Garrote Larense (a weapons-based art)
                        --- Knife fighting traditions with the Gauchos (another weapons-based art)
                        --- Capoeira, originally (according to some sources) a striking/weapons art.
                        --- Luta Livre, a system predominantly based on wrestling (and which seems to have evolved almost independently and in isolation in Brazil)


                        You can't call autoctonous the capoeira for its african origin either the luta livre for its european origin. The same with the gaucho knife or "facon", because this techniques are own by the settled european
                        immigrants in the argentinean pampas. It was this gaucho who exterminated a great part of the argentine natives. The development of this combat systems is recent, at least it could be dated 100 years ago or maybe a little more.

                        Here is a remarkable point: It has been wanted to compare the Inca CIVILIZATION with the origins and development of the other Latin American towns. A great part of them were tribe not as developed as the civilizations in that time like the Mayas and Aztec who were more organized and had better technologic development as the Incas. To try to size all the southamerica cultures with the same criteria is not correct.



                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Teh El Macho:

                        A. We have an art, that claims not only to be autoctonous of the Anti Plano, but that it claims to trace its origins directly to Pre-Incan martial arts (of the Moche and Tiwanaku among others listed). This is a claim that seems extremelly unlikely, perhaps impossible to substantiate.



                        As I mention before, probably there are proof for this but there is no info in the internet. Most of the discussion in this thread is based in information obtained via internet or suppositions.
                        In the RM book is a brief description about these pre incan cultures where Mr. Flores found vestiges about their war arts. Later in the 2nd Chapter "The Evolution Of Rumi Maki: From Myth to Modern Times" he makes a description of the oral tradition he received. That goes with a post at this thread:

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Teh El Macho:

                        Oral tradition has always been an acceptable means of corroborating history. Archeologist, sociologists and anthropologists have used this extensively. For example, colonial records from Nicaragua contain the oral traditions of Nicaraos, and their migration from Central Mexico to Nicaragua sometime in the 9th century AD. This is also corroborated by oral traditions in other parts of MesoAmerica which narrate massive exodus of people out of Central Mexico, which match the Toltecs rise to power (which was the event which triggered the exodus.)

                        Oral tradition of the Native people of Alaska (Haida, and Tlingit) speak of a time where the sea shorelines extended further than today. That counting with the number of generations passed since that time (also recorded in oral tradition) match more or less the end of the Younger Drias glacial period around 9600 BC.

                        The oral tradition of the people of the Xingu in Brazil documents their recent arrival to the region. This is also backed by archeological evidence.

                        Around the world, oral tradition has accurately, most of the time, explained migration routes and catastrophic events. In the Americas, the Spaniard authorities and clergy were pretty good at recording as much as possible about life during and prior to the conquest, which is just a few centuries ago, not too long to invalidate a properly kept oral tradition.


                        Though oral tradition cannot provide an exact proof, it can provide sufficient evidence to lead credence to Mr. Flores claims of martial continuity from pre-Incan times.
                        This is what the RM book said and agree about the cientific investigation

                        I believe that it could be really easy to trace the history line with these oral traditions. If we can find in History texts and books that the incas assimilated the fighting techniques of the conquested tribes or towns and other aspects of them, the percentage of credibility of this oral tradition will doubtlessly rise. Making it possible for RM to claim this aspect of the history.

                        Quote:
                        Originally Posted by Teh El Macho:


                        B. The aforementioned art does not have a development that resembles what one would expect, in general, in a folk martial arts (weapons or wrestling base), and that it does not resemble what it's being reported by Ralph G wrote?

                        C. Furthermore, the techniques look so stylized in such a particular way that their autenticity (not to mention, their practicality) seem dubious at best
                        In the 2nd chapter of the RM book Mr. Flores mentioned an evolutive process of this fighting art in three stages. Influenced by its coexistence with other races domminated by the spaniard conqueror, like the black race in the Colony time and the oriental race in the Republic time.
                        However he also said that in the book he only shows some of the fighting ways or techniques that he considers uncommon to the MA practiocioners. On the other hand as he declares, each town in Peru developed its own fighting way. Thats why to evaluate this with the similarity of what was described by Jack Grover can be subjective, anyway, what was exposed by Jack Grover just is a proof of the EXISTANCE of martial practices in Peru before Mr Flores was born. The best way to judge this fighting art as it was also said by other posters in this thread, is viewing a video. There is no other option.

                        This thread begin reducing credibility to RM because it was considered little probable the existance of martial practice by the Incas and that these tradition subsisted until our times. There are a lot of contributed vestiges. Now the thing is to demostrate if its origin (not lineage) is pre incan. I hope this can be proven soon.

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Originally posted by iliaster
                          You can't call autoctonous the capoeira for its african origin either the luta livre for its european origin. The same with the gaucho knife or "facon", because this techniques are own by the settled european immigrants in the argentinean pampas. It was this gaucho who exterminated a great part of the argentine natives. The development of this combat systems is recent, at least it could be dated 100 years ago or maybe a little more.


                          Excuse me? So something in Latin America is not autoctonous unless it's Amerindian? Excuse me, but the peoples of African descent have been living in this continent separated from Africa for four hundred years. Their cultural development is independent from what you see in Africa. There are no parallels in Capoeira with any of the MAs that exist in Africa.

                          I challenge you to produce evidence that Capoeira was introduced to the Americans by African slaves instead of it being developed by people descending from African slaves and which develop their own distinct culture in the Americas, separated and in isolation from Africa.

                          As for Luta Livre, it isn't European. It's Brazilian, American, predominantly by Mestizos. Mesitzos are autoctonous of the Americas since they don't exist anywhere else in the world, they have a racial component that is Amerindian, and neither it nor the resulting ethnic group exist anywhere in the world. Furthermore, the different Mestizo cultures in existence in the Americas are not found anywhere else in the world.

                          I challenge you to produce evidence that Luta Livre originated outside of Brazil.

                          Saying that these two groups are not autoctonous of the Americas is like saying that the Quechua people are no longer autoctonous because the majority of them profess a religion that is either Catholic (not autoctonous of the Americas) or a synthesis of it or that the Aymaras are not autoctonous because several aspects of their culture have an European influence (.ie. the tipical bowler hat in the traditional Aymara Chola dress.) This is not even bringing the fact that there is 'mestizaje' of various degrees among the Native peoples of the Americas, certainly among cosmopolitan groups like the Quechua and Aymara speaking groups.

                          Also, you are wrong in saying that Gauchos are predominantly descendants of Europeans. They were predominantly mestizos. Do you even know what you are talking about? The Italian/Sicilian and Welsh immigration to Argentina which eventually produced the wiping out of Amerindians in the Southern Cone occured from the second part of the 19th century, way late from the formation of the Gaucho mestizo culture.

                          If this is not the case, please explain with detail why this is not so.

                          Furthermore, being autoctonous have nothing to do with ethnicity but exclusivity of locality.

                          It also bears to mind that it was later arrivals on the Southern Hemisphere (distinct from the already existing Gaucho culture) that carried out the massacres, which has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

                          Stick to the point - Rumi Maki claims of ancient ancestry down to the Moche and Tiwanaku.

                          Assuming that the Gaucho knife-fighting culture doesn't go far to a century, that still does not change the fact that it is autochtonous of Argentina, not found anywhere else in the world.

                          If we were to think this way, then we would be forced to say Rumi Maki is not autochtonous since, so far, all evidence being presented by Mr. Flores' camp seems to start around the 1920's (this is not considering the authenticity of this evidence.)

                          Now, if we were to play the race card - let's play this twisted logic game of yours: do you think that the peoples that got exterminated where the first and only ones that lived in those lands? Quechuas originated in Central Peru, but by Inca conquest and throughout the colonial period, they spread out farther south. Are we going to say they are not autoctonous.

                          Aymaras originated in the Pacific coast of Peru, moving to the Bolivian Altiplano during the first milenium of the current era (most likely erradicating other native people in their path). Does that mean they are not autoctonous of Bolivia?

                          Look at my own country, Nicaragua. It gets its from the Nicaraos/Niquiranos. They came from Central Mexico to SouthWest Nicaragua, wiping out or displacing Misumalpan peoples. Does that mean that they are no longer autochtonous of Nicaragua?

                          Even if we discount Gaucho knife-fighting, capoeira and garrote larense because of these 'impurities' that in your eyes do not make them autochtonous arts (despite the fact that they develop in the Americas and are not found anywhere else), you still have Huka Huka, and there are records of different fighting systems in the Americas at the time of the conquest (either weapons based or wrestling based).

                          This still mirrors the development of martial arts in the world, which runs counter to what's found in Rumi Maki. The point is still valid even if you take gaucho knife fighting, capoeira and garrote larense out of the picture.
                          Last edited by Teh El Macho; 2/15/2008 2:40pm, .

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Originally posted by iliaster
                            Here is a remarkable point: It has been wanted to compare the Inca CIVILIZATION with the origins and development of the other Latin American towns. A great part of them were tribe not as developed as the civilizations in that time like the Mayas and Aztec who were more organized and had better technologic development as the Incas. To try to size all the southamerica cultures with the same criteria is not correct.
                            Wrong.

                            First, the Mayan civilization collapsed 5 centuries before the establishment of the Tawantinsuyo. What remained were a bunch of smaller city states spread out from Northern Peten to the Yucatan peninsula. Nothing remained that even approached what the Mayan used to be. Even at its hight, however, it was still a collection of city-states of a tribal nature. And they started as bands and tribes with a common language.

                            The Aztecs, were, more precisely Nahuatl-speaking nomadic war bands known as Mexica, Tenochca or Colhua-Mexica, who founded Tenochtitlan as a village, and whom later formed an alliance with the Nahuatl-speaking Acolhuas of Texcoco and Tepanecs of Tlacopan to form what was later know as the Aztec Empire.

                            These were tribal bands that migrated from Northern Mexico into the Central Valley, displaced Oto-Manguean speaking peoples, and engaged in wars with other tribes and nations in the power vacuum left by the collapse of the Toltecs. They started as tribal bands and in less than two centuries, they consolidated themselves as a urban empire, no different from the Incas.

                            Even if that thing which you wrote were right, as fascinating as it would have been (were it to be true), that's still irrelevant to the point at hand.


                            In the 2nd chapter of the RM book Mr. Flores mentioned an evolutive process of this fighting art in three stages. Influenced by its coexistence with other races domminated by the spaniard conqueror, like the black race in the Colony time and the oriental race in the Republic time.
                            First, which Oriental race are we referring to? As far as I know there is no Oriental race. There is Chinese culture, Japanese culture and so on, completely different cultures with completely unrelated languages and diverse religious backgrounds. "Oriental race" is a term of ignorance.

                            So which of these groups contributed to Rumi Maki? The Chinese? The Japanese? And if so, how? And how African slaves contributed to its development? Can we star talking with specifics rather than vague generalities?

                            Second, does he describe in detail this development? When did this happen? How? Does he still address the questions about what Amerindian races and martial arts got involved in the development of Rumi Maki? Which arts? Which races? When, how? How does he knows this? Can he describe this process in detail?

                            Third, since there are foraneous influences, does that invalidate Rumi Maki as an autochtonous Peruvian MA?
                            Last edited by Teh El Macho; 2/15/2008 1:56pm, .

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Originally posted by iliaster
                              I wonder who the proffesional filmmaker is? can you give more info about him? I think it would be interesting to see (although its off topic).
                              On the other hand, I have found in wikipedia a peruvian who is not related to Mr. Flores but it seems he knows something about RumiMaki http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discusi%C3%B3n:Rumi_Maki
                              But also the RM book says its practice isn't well know.
                              I found in other forum the idea that the term RumiMaki is used by some peruvians as an "urban legend", but there is a reference to its existence.

                              http://www.youtube.com/user/angelromerop

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Originally posted by Teh El Macho
                                Not to be offensive, but there is people who believes in the Chupa Cabras.

                                Which forum are you referring to where some Peruvians believe in the term as an urban legend? How did the come to believe so? Are these references to its existence something that can be taken seriously, that can be evaluated?

                                And which individual of the many in that wiki discussion you are referring to? Anyways, that discussion is a disaster. No one has yet to answer the points brought forward by Pablo Jimenez since he posted them on 04:06 11 mar 2007

                                Everything else is a collection of romantic retardation. I leave you guys with the last post in that discussion. I'm too tired to translate the immense idiocy of it for those who don't speak/read Spanish. I will come back at a later time to do so, so that other people know exactly what kind of crap propels these people making these ridiculous statements:

                                Comment

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