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    #46

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      #47
      Originally posted by Lozenge123
      Interesting...however, there is an article on the Rumi Maki website dating from the 1970s. How come these Qechua didn't hear about it until the 1990s? Is it possible that they are not completely in the loop with respect to their Peruvian neighbors? I'm also curious...what is their exposure to Rumi Maki or to Flores? On what basis was the martial art reconstructed? From ancient texts containing actual techniques? I had been under the impression that these didn't exist. Or do they claim that Rumi Maki was essentially made up from scratch? I'm very curious to get a little more info from these folks, if they actually know all about it, or this is merely an assumption/opinion...
      Besides that article from the 70's what else exists?

      How do you prove that this is an authentic art directly coming or evolved from Incan times?

      There is no need in finding more information about the Quechua folks in Argentina commenting on the autenticity of Rumi Maki. It is the proponents of this art who have an obligation to provide documentation on the autenticity of their claims, not on the skeptics to document their doubts.

      Lack of familiarity with Mr. Flores, or with the Quechua community in Peru does not in any way precludes them from raising objective doubts on the authenticity of this. It is the proponents of Rumi Maki, and I shall say, romantic revisionists of History who sadly latch onto these high tales of martial antiquity who must lay out in the clear alll the evidence that demonstrate that what they claim is actually true.

      They claim it; they own it. Such is the basis of the science and historical research.

      It is also worth noting that the Rumi Maki website does not have an article from the 1970s as you said. It has an scan of a newspaper page, almost impossible to read. The fact that this is from a newspaper completely throws it out as an article worth citing.

      This is not material for citation. This is not the product of research or documentation at all. Not only that, the author of this newspaper stub demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to martial arts. Let me translate for all to see some of the things read in this article:
      Nonetheless, many of the supposed feats of Karateka and Judoka are nothing more than cinematographic tricks.

      Really? So what Judoka do is nothing more than cinematographic tricks? Shouldn't this sentence alone be sufficient to cast doubt on this newspaper article, let alone to use it as a citation on Rumi Maki?

      From there, after casting doubt on the cinematographic tricks by the men of the Orient, this newspaper article builds the momentum it needs to introduce Rumi Maki (coloring added by me on the colorful, hardly objective choices of words):
      El "Rumi-Maki"

      This sensational method, that even teaches norms of healthy living to the young masses, goes by the name "Rumi-Maki". This, in Quechua, means "Hand of Stone", and it's publication by "EXTRA" (surprise, the very same newspaper being cited by the Rumi Maki folks), will become an audacious feat of journalism. It will present to its readers the most noteworthy aspects of this fighting system which comprehensively contain martial arts techniques of the most ancient tradition backed up with the experience of men who for many years have triumphantly confronted true, real violence.

      In tomorrow's edition, "Extra" will teach you self-defense.

      I do not understand the level of ignorance with which someone would even consider this to be material worth citing.

      This is a tabloid article, an example of sensationalist, yellow journalism. It provides nothing, absolutely nothing that one can use and verify the authenticity of Rumi Maki as an authoctonous martial art system containing methods of combat dating from the Incan era, certainly not from the Tiwanaku and/or Moche times.


      At this point, I strongly insist you stop referring to this thing, this caricature of journalism that doesn't even qualify as an article, as somethign worth citing as evidence. This is not rocket science. Anyone with a modicum of education can see that this article is worthless for proving the validity of the historical claims made by the proponents of Rumi Maki.

      This doesn't prove anything. It only demonstrates that a tabloid ran a yellow journalistic article on something called Rumi Maki back in 1974. It does not explain, or document the system and the veracity of the historical claims made by its proponents.
      Last edited by Teh El Macho; 2/11/2008 5:08pm, .

      Comment


        #48
        Originally posted by Lozenge123
        Again, however, I ask: what proof would be good enough? What "evidence" would satisfy people here? The Gamal Selim case seems a rather extreme case for comparison. With Rumi Maki, we're not talking about 40,000 years---only about 400. And even if the author cannot provide "extraordinary proof," does this still definitely mean that the system is a fraud?
        No, it just casts a longer shadow of doubt.

        What if it is extremely effective? In my experience, highly effective systems don't spring to life out of the grass. That is why I really feel that I have to see it in action in order to make up my mind about the authenticity issue.
        In that sense, there isn't much in the MA world that does spring to life out of the grass. Everything builds on what has come before it. By the same token, we've seen effective systems evolve over as few as a couple of teacher/student generations - modern MMA would be a good example.

        Comment


          #49
          Originally posted by Teh El Macho

          It would be great if you could write up a thread on the gaucho tradition of knife fighting if you had enough sources (or shit, even video). That would be a great addition to the MA History section of this website.
          See http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/weapons/esgrima.html http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/weapons/ecblade.html
          http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...?t=1498&page=2
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWxfwW5bqKA

          We lost the MA History forum early last year, IIRC; technically, MABS is the right forum for historical threads.

          Comment


            #50
            Originally posted by Teh El Macho
            How do you prove that this is an authentic art directly coming or evolved from Incan times?
            Indeed, Teh El Macho, how do you prove it? This was one of my original questions. What evidence would, in your eyes, put to rest any questions (or doubts) about authenticity?

            Originally posted by Teh El Macho
            It is also worth noting that the Rumi Maki website does not have an article from the 1970s as you said. It has an scan of a newspaper page, almost impossible to read. The fact that this is from a newspaper completely throws it out as an article worth citing.
            My mistake...I should have referred to it as a "newspaper article" instead of simply as "an article." According to the Chicago Manual of Style rules, however, newspapers can be cited.

            Originally posted by Teh El Macho
            This is not material for citation. This is not the product of research or documentation at all. Not only that, the author of this newspaper stub demonstrate a complete lack of knowledge when it comes to martial arts.
            My only point in referring to this article was to show that Rumi Maki was "known" to exist prior to the 1990s...and to thus illustrate that the aforementioned Argentinian Qechua may not be completely "in the loop" about it. That is all.

            Originally posted by Teh El Macho
            It provides nothing, absolutely nothing that one can use and verify the authenticity of Rumi Maki as an authoctonous martial art system containing methods of combat dating from the Incan era, certainly not from the Tiwanaku and/or Moche times. This doesn't prove anything. It only demonstrates that a tabloid ran a yellow journalistic article on something called Rumi Maki back in 1974. It does not explain, or document the system and the veracity of the historical claims made by its proponents.
            Indeed, and this touches upon my original question: what evidence could Mr. Flores provide that would constitute "absolute proof," that would "verify authenticity," and remove all doubts in your mind?

            It seems unreasonable (and unfair) to criticize Mr. Flores for not providing "absolute proof," when nobody here will actually indicate or describe what kind of proof it is that they are looking for. For example: ancient certificates? Hieroglyphic scrolls? Documentary film footage from the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries? Sorry to be flippant, but I am actually quite curious about specific ideas regarding absolute proof.

            Comment


              #51
              Originally posted by dingirfecho
              Lozenge, what do you think of the lack of evidence of Rumi Maki in tinkus?
              Dingirfecho, the Tinku tradition sounds interesting. The wikipedia link that you provide, however, only states that Tinkus are practiced in Bolivia...what about Peru?

              By the way, the Flores book does talk about the use of Rumi Maki in the context of "ritual" contests that take place during native festivals. There is also a still photo in the book (taken from documentary video footage) showing natives dressed in traditional garb, engaging in a ritual fight. In this photo they are standing in the distinctive Rumi Maki posture, with forearms perpendicular to the ground (NOTE: this is NOT the same footage that was already linked to in this thread). I think the Rumi Maki contests were limited to a handful of villages, and were not a widespread thing. There may be some distant connection to the Tinkus.

              Dingirfecho, I am very interested in the fact that you are a lineage-holder in the Qechua shamanic tradition. I have a book about the Q'ero paqos, and it is quite fascinating. Are you a pampa mesayoq or an alto mesayoq? Or are you involved in another tradition? I would definitely like to learn more about these guys if I ever make it out to your area of the world.

              All the best...

              Comment


                #52
                Originally posted by Lozenge123
                My mistake...I should have referred to it as a "newspaper article" instead of simply as "an article." According to the Chicago Manual of Style rules, however, newspapers can be cited.
                The National Enquirer and other low-quality tabloids keep publishing articles on human/animal hybrids, monsters, chimeras, alien abductions, over-the-top tales from other people and material that is of a rather apocryphal quality to put it mildly.

                Examples as follows (click on the spoiler):

                Spoiler:






                The Chicago Manual of Style is a great thing - I happen to be very familiar with since I actually had to write academic papers for publication while on grad school as well as technical documents in school and at work (not counting the many times I had to write a lot more crap as an undergrad.) It is a great thing... a thing that is supposed to be used with proper judgement.

                Clearly if I were to follow the Chicago Manual of Style like a blinded simple-minded automaton or an inexperience freshman student, I would interpret that manual's guidelines as indication that the aforementioned newspaper articles are worth citing.

                Clearly, it is not the case. Clearly, it is not the case with the Rumi Maki article either. The citation of references is not something to be done by blindly following a manual. It is supposed to be done with good academic judgement.

                Originally posted by Lozenge123
                My only point in referring to this article was to show that Rumi Maki was "known" to exist prior to the 1990s...and to thus illustrate that the aforementioned Argentinian Qechua may not be completely "in the loop" about it. That is all.
                That still doesn't prove anything. The book, the website and every single resource that promotes this art claims explicitly or surreptitiously (more often than not, the later) that there is an authentic, legitimate connection between what Rumi Maki contains with combat practices dated not only from the Incan era, but Pre-Incan as well (by mentioning techniques coming down from the Tiwanaku and the Moche.)

                It doesn't matter if it was known a year ago, 20 years ago, 50 years ago. It does not prove the legitimacy and historical accuracy of the claims being made.

                Furthermore, this so-called article, brought to us in a citation by the Chicaco Manual of Style does not mention the authenticity of it. Only that it's reporting, in a rather sensationalist, subjective pseudo-patriotic-romanticist manner that this is the real deal as opposed to the cinematographic tricks of Judoka. I mean, of all the people to call trickters, it calls Judoka? That calls into question the knowledge, the intelligence of the individual writing this.

                This by itself calls into question the technical value of this tabloid article. Furthermore, the sensationalist mode in which it covers Rumi Maki robs it of any objective value.

                It is not unreasonable to believe in the possibility that the author or the publication were acting in collusion to spread these claims of historical authenticity which have yet to be proved, and which to an objective, scientifically skeptical eye, will look rather bizarre to no mentioned concoted and false.

                Doubt everything until evidence is presented. That's how it's done. Citing this caricature of an article as proof that Rumi Maki was known in the 70's and then jump to the conclusion that this is a sign of its historical authenticity is nothing short of circular logic and wishfull thinking. This is a shameless attempt at using petitio principii logical fallacy.

                Originally posted by Lozenge123
                Indeed, and this touches upon my original question: what evidence could Mr. Flores provide that would constitute "absolute proof," that would "verify authenticity," and remove all doubts in your mind?
                That's for Mr. Flores to present. After all, he is the one making the claims.

                He who makes the claims has the burden of proof upon it.

                It may be impossible to prove the authenticity of the claims that link Rumi Maki not only to Incan times but to Pre-Incan times. It is then up to Mr. Flores to be responsible and respectful to history in general, and the history of his people and nation in particular to stop making those claims until he can back them up.

                There are at least 4 steps of authenticity that Mr. Flores must fullfill if he and the Rumi Maki proponents wish to keep making the following surreptitious claims:

                [INDENT]]

                Step 1

                Now, if Mr. Flores can prove that his tradition comes from family/verbal tradition and that there are elders than can testify to objective 3rd parties something of a nature similar to Rumi Maki has existed for generations, even if in an uncodified, informal mode that could be taken as proof of authenticity (thus disproving in our minds that this is nothing more than a romantic manufacturing dating from the 60's and 70's and using the obscurity of those times to come to our present years to try to sell it as an authentic Peruvian Martial Art.)

                Example of arts that have existed in an uncodified, informal, almost tribal/verbal tradition are such as Gaucho knife-fighting tradition, Garrote Larense, or the different machete fighting traditions that have come and go during the colonial and post-colonial history of Latin America.

                If such evidence is presented, then Mr. Flores can rightly claim authenticity as a Peruvian Martial Art of post-colonial folk origin.

                Step 2

                If there are colonial records indicating a martial tradition in Peru, and if they resemble what's present in Rumi Maki, including not only techniques but terminology, then we are one step further. Mr. Flores can claim authenticity to a folk fighting tradition dating from the colonial times.

                Step 3

                If there are colonial records at the time of the conquest indicating hand-to-hand martial tradition among the pre-conquest peoples of Peru, in addition to the criteria in step 2, then Mr. Flores can rightly claim or suggest that Rumi Maki is an authentic Peruvian Martial Art with a history verifiable to the colonial times and with a strong possibility that it had directly evolved from martial arts of the Incan era.

                Step 4

                If there are colonial records at the time of the conquest of Inca historians narrating about martial traditions (in the form of oral history or legends), or if there is archeological evidence from before the establishment of the Tahuantinsuyo (specifically to the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku), and if steps 2 and 3 are met, then Mr. Flores can claim that Rumi Maki is an authentic Peruvian martial arts dated from the colonial era, most likely evolved from Incan martial traditions who themselves were possibly evolved from prior Pre-Incan, and specifically to the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku as generally claimed by the proponents of Rumi Maki.

                Originally posted by Lozenge123
                It seems unreasonable (and unfair) to criticize Mr. Flores for not providing "absolute proof," when nobody here will actually indicate or describe what kind of proof it is that they are looking for.
                That is just plain stupid.

                If I were to claim that 1377897231^3 + 11 is a prime number, people don't need to specify how I go around to prove it. It is my obligation to come with a method, whichever the case it may be, to prove or at least provide strong objective evidence suggesting the truth value of such claim.

                It is not my right or my defenders' right to demand skeptics to lay out the rules of what needs to be used as proof. It is my obligation, as the person making the claim to find a way to do so.

                In any case what you just did is another fallacy, one know as appeal to emotion/appeal to pity. If you know so much about the Chicago Manual of Style, you should know how to do objective research and the proper way to use logic.

                Back to the heart of the matter - Rumi Maki proponents claim this (red text is mine, yellow are the items that are most in contention):

                [INDENT]According to tradition (which tradition?), Rumi Maki is the combination of various fighting systems of the multiple cultures that populated Peru before the Inca era. Each Pre-inca culture contributed something to this fighting art, such as the Chavin, Mochica-Chimu, and Tiahuanaco (surreptitious claim of descendance from the Chavin, Moche and Tiwanaku)]

                Originally posted by Lozenge123
                For example: ancient certificates? Hieroglyphic scrolls? Documentary film footage from the seventeenth, eighteenth and nineteenth centuries? Sorry to be flippant, but I am actually quite curious about specific ideas regarding absolute proof.
                I already presented a guideline of what needs to be used as proof. If Mr. Flores cannot back that up, he must stop making those claims if he considers himself an honest person and not yet one more snake oil selling quack, which we have way too many in our beloved Latin America.

                ENOUGH. OF. THIS. QUACKERY. LYING. SHIT.

                If there is nothing that proves such claims, who the fuck is he to make them? And what the fuck are all of these pedestrian, romantic novelist/history rewriters doing when they go about spreading those lies?

                If Mr. Flores and his retarded followes cannot muster the proofs needed for this, they have a moral obligation to present a public retraction on their claims regarding Rumi Maki's authenticity as a Peruvian martial art combining traditions of Pre-Incan origin, specifically Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku's.

                Anything less than that, and the continuation of maintaining that claim without presenting evidence of its truth, that is an insult to our Latin American collective history and culture. It is an affront, a spit in the face to his own culture.

                Enough of this. Proof or STFU.
                Last edited by Teh El Macho; 2/12/2008 7:42am, .

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by Teh El Macho

                  It may be impossible to prove the authenticity of the claims that link Rumi Maki not only to Incan times but to Pre-Incan times.
                  Thank you for freely admitting that nothing may possibly satisfy you.

                  Originally posted by Teh El Macho
                  There are at least 4 steps of authenticity that Mr. Flores must fullfill if he and the Rumi Maki proponents wish to keep making the following surreptitious claims:

                  [INDENT]]

                  Step 1

                  Now, if Mr. Flores can prove that his tradition comes from family/verbal tradition and that there are elders than can testify to objective 3rd parties something of a nature similar to Rumi Maki has existed for generations, even if in an uncodified, informal mode that could be taken as proof of authenticity (thus disproving in our minds that this is nothing more than a romantic manufacturing dating from the 60's and 70's and using the obscurity of those times to come to our present years to try to sell it as an authentic Peruvian Martial Art.)

                  Example of arts that have existed in an uncodified, informal, almost tribal/verbal tradition are such as Gaucho knife-fighting tradition, Garrote Larense, or the different machete fighting traditions that have come and go during the colonial and post-colonial history of Latin America.

                  If such evidence is presented, then Mr. Flores can rightly claim authenticity as a Peruvian Martial Art of post-colonial folk origin.

                  Step 2

                  If there are colonial records indicating a martial tradition in Peru, and if they resemble what's present in Rumi Maki, including not only techniques but terminology, then we are one step further. Mr. Flores can claim authenticity to a folk fighting tradition dating from the colonial times.

                  Step 3

                  If there are colonial records at the time of the conquest indicating hand-to-hand martial tradition among the pre-conquest peoples of Peru, in addition to the criteria in step 2, then Mr. Flores can rightly claim or suggest that Rumi Maki is an authentic Peruvian Martial Art with a history verifiable to the colonial times and with a strong possibility that it had directly evolved from martial arts of the Incan era.

                  Step 4

                  If there are colonial records at the time of the conquest of Inca historians narrating about martial traditions (in the form of oral history or legends), or if there is archeological evidence from before the establishment of the Tahuantinsuyo (specifically to the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku), and if steps 2 and 3 are met, then Mr. Flores can claim that Rumi Maki is an authentic Peruvian martial arts dated from the colonial era, most likely evolved from Incan martial traditions who themselves were possibly evolved from prior Pre-Incan, and specifically to the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku as generally claimed by the proponents of Rumi Maki.

                  It is not my right or my defenders' right to demand skeptics to lay out the rules of what needs to be used as proof. It is my obligation, as the person making the claim to find a way to do so.
                  Actually, I put the burden upon you to actually describe the kind of proof you were looking for, since you seemed unable to do so. Now that you have laid it out, it seems Mr. Flores has his work cut out for him to convince guys like you. But as you yourself state, no abundance of evidence "may ever be enough."

                  I notice that you are still quite vague as to what form this proof might take. The only solid thing you mention is the existence of "colonial records." For instance, what about Step 1? What proof could the "elders" provide that would satisfy you? Written testimony? Video interviews? Would these constitute "absolute proof" in your mind?

                  Indeed, have other martial arts such as gaucho fighting and garrote laranse fulfilled all of these various steps and criteria? Not that I have seen...which means if I go about things your way, I must now condemn these arts as fraudulent.

                  After all, the "burden of proof" is on them, right?

                  Actually, at a certain point, the burden is on the one who legitimately seeks the truth...if the truth is in fact one's object. Mr. Flores has already provided bounteous information about his three masters, provided a long list of fellow instructors/students of these lineages, and has named various native villages wherein ritual Rumi Maki contests still occur to this day. He has, in short, provided quite a bit of information that we can now investigate and follow up on--if we care enough about "uncovering the truth" to do so.

                  I think it is rather unreasonable to expect Mr. Flores to bring all of his masters and fellow lineage-holders to each one of our doorsteps for the purpose of eliminating all doubt in our questioning minds. If I were in his position, I certainly wouldn't bother.

                  Originally posted by Teh El Macho
                  That is just plain stupid.

                  ENOUGH. OF. THIS. QUACKERY. LYING. SHIT.

                  And what the fuck are all of these pedestrian, romantic novelist/history rewriters doing when they go about spreading those lies?

                  Enough of this. Proof or STFU.
                  Thank you for your rudeness and extreme lack of courtesy. A man shall be known by his words and conduct, and you are now known, sir.

                  It seems that my brief time on this forum has come to an end...for there is purpose in engaging in legitimate debate and exchange of information, but not in trading insults with base and dishonorable men.

                  Sir, I now leave you to the pleasure of your own company.

                  Adios...
                  Last edited by Lozenge123; 2/12/2008 11:43am, .

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Originally posted by Lozenge123
                    Indeed, have other martial arts such as gaucho fighting and garrote laranse fulfilled all of these various steps and criteria? Not that I have seen...which means if I go about things your way, I must now condemn these arts as fraudulent.
                    That is why i asked if you have knowledge of Spanish. You are entitled to your opinion, but not being able to dig into the sources of this Rumi Maki from a scholar perspective, don't expect said opinion to be highly regarded. You just have shoot your foot comparing gaucho fighting and venezuelan garrote with Rumi Maki.

                    For instance, what do you think about the paper i linked previously?; can you contact, i.e. the guy (or another investigator of Peruvian culture) who uploaded this clip:
                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=[yt]toSrlkNCPSY

                    and ask him about Rumi Maki ?

                    Are you able to put here independent and scholar sources about the issue?

                    Are you interested to discuss this question in Spanish MA forums populated by both Spaniards and Latino-americans?

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Thank you for freely admitting that nothing may possibly satisfy you.
                      That sir, is a logical fallacy called a strawman . How the hell do you pretend to have a logical discussion if you are incapable of operating without logical fallacies.

                      I did not admit that nothing can possibly satisfy me. I stated the posibility that there are not enough resources that can be used as acceptable, logically and historically sound, objectively verifiable sources free of pseudo-scientific, pseudo-historian, chauvinistic romanticisms that have nothing to do with actual history.

                      It is nice that you are trying to put words in my mouth that I did not say (.ie. that I admitted freely that nothing can satisfy me as proof.) It is nicer indeed that you decide to skip completely my explanation of a possible framework the Rumi Maki people can use to establish sufficient proof on the authenticity of their claims.

                      Now, if it is impossible to prove this, what, then, gives Mr. Flores and the Rumi Maki folks the right to claim this???
                      According to tradition, Rumi Maki is the combination of various fighting systems of the multiple cultures that populated Peru before the Inca era

                      What right do they have to say that? What justification do they have to say this? What credentials do the have for saying this?

                      I'm from Nicaragua, and I can more or less recite the indigenous background of some of my relatives. Does that give me the right to say I'm a direct decendant of historical chieftans in consquest-time Nicaragua such as Diriangen or Nicarao?

                      Of course not, not if I cannot procure the colonial documents and post-colonial documents, or at the very least, a comprehensive oral tradition passed down from one tribal chronicler to another that demonstrate my ancestry down to either of them. If I can't muster that proof, what right do I have to claim such ancestry?

                      How the fuck would I know that for truth if there is no proof of it????

                      Same with the Rumi Maki folks when they claim, verbatin, that Rumi Maki is the combination of various fighting systems of the multiple cultures that populated Peru before the Inca era.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Actually, I put the burden upon you to actually describe the kind of proof you were looking for, since you seemed unable to do so.
                      That again, is stupid. That's not how academic work is done.

                      Do not pretend to tell me how academic work is done. I have never, ever seen such preposterous claim that the skeptical has to lay out the framework of proof. This is absolutely ridiculous.

                      Even if I were actually pressed to do so, the framework already exists. It's common knowledge. The framework I listed is not the result of rocket science or quantum mechanics. All you have to do is break down the claims into their simplest components and objectively attack them.

                      Any person worth its salt knows that when he presents a claim or thesis, he must, a priori, attack it himself, find potential loopholes and provide explanations so that potential detractors can see his line of work is solid.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Now that you have laid it out, it seems Mr. Flores has his work cut out for him to convince guys like you.
                      Guys like me, you mean individuals who don't buy into romatic mystic lies?

                      For people who buy Mr. Flores argument without actually even thinking the veracity of his claims are gullible, ignorant, simpleton and pedestrian, thirsty of having a glamorous connection to a romantizided past devoid of actual history rather than in actually being educated with facts, and above all, principles devoid of lies.

                      I'm not one of them. They don't require proof. They aggressively seek out to live a lie to make themselves feel better, to feel connected to a past long gone, even if it means living a lie.

                      They have no respect to the actual history of their own countries and ancestors, which is why they prefer to fabricate a past, thus discarting the actual past passed onto them by those who actually lived before them, thus desecrating their memory.

                      I'm not one of them. Ergo, I require proof.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      But as you yourself state, no abundance of evidence "may ever be enough."
                      Again, strawman. I indicated a possibilty that obtaining such evidence is impossible. This will indicate then, that such evidence does not exist. And as a result, it would deny Mr. Flores and the Rumi Maki folks the right to make such claims.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      I notice that you are still quite vague as to what form this proof might take. The only solid thing you mention is the existence of "colonial records." For instance, what about Step 1? What proof could the "elders" provide that would satisfy you? Written testimony? Video interviews? Would these constitute "absolute proof" in your mind?
                      Again, strawman.

                      Oral tradition has always been an acceptable means of corroborating history. Archeologist, sociologists and anthropologists have used this extensively. For example, colonial records from Nicaragua contain the oral traditions of Nicaraos, and their migration from Central Mexico to Nicaragua sometime in the 9th century AD. This is also corroborated by oral traditions in other parts of MesoAmerica which narrate massive exodus of people out of Central Mexico, which match the Toltecs rise to power (which was the event which triggered the exodus.)

                      Oral tradition of the Native people of Alaska (Haida, and Tlingit) speak of a time where the sea shorelines extended further than today. That counting with the number of generations passed since that time (also recorded in oral tradition) match more or less the end of the Younger Drias glacial period around 9600 BC.

                      The oral tradition of the people of the Xingu in Brazil documents their recent arrival to the region. This is also backed by archeological evidence.

                      Around the world, oral tradition has accurately, most of the time, explained migration routes and catastrophic events. In the Americas, the Spaniard authorities and clergy were pretty good at recording as much as possible about life during and prior to the conquest, which is just a few centuries ago, not too long to invalidate a properly kept oral tradition.

                      Though oral tradition cannot provide an exact proof, it can provide sufficient evidence to lead credence to Mr. Flores claims of martial continuity from pre-Incan times.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Indeed, have other martial arts such as gaucho fighting and garrote laranse fulfilled all of these various steps and criteria?
                      Strawman. These arts have had documentation for decades. Most important of all, neither claims some obscure ancestry that cannot be substantiated with facts.

                      If they were doing the same, I can assure you, they'd be receiving the same no-nonse, no-bullshit, skeptical treatment.

                      Stop with strawmans, would you?

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Not that I have seen...which means if I go about things your way, I must now condemn these arts as fraudulent.
                      Red herring.

                      Only if they claim things that cannot be proven. They do not claim a particular ancentry. They do no claim a uniform curriculum. They do not claim to be applicable to fighting ranges beyond stick/knife fighting

                      They exist as folk arts passed down by folks in an non-uniform, informal manner. They don't claim anything else, and as a result they do not meet the criteria of being fraudulent.

                      Stop with the red herrings, would you?

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      After all, the "burden of proof" is on them, right?
                      Yep, but since they haven't claimed anything outrageous such as being arts directly passed down by pre-conquest Indians, they have nothing to prove.

                      How much more stupid and desperate can this line of argument get?

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Actually, at a certain point, the burden is on the one who legitimately seeks the truth...if the truth is in fact one's object. Mr. Flores has already provided bounteous information about his three masters, provided a long list of fellow instructors/students of these lineages, and has named various native villages wherein ritual Rumi Maki contests still occur to this day. He has, in short, provided quite a bit of information that we can now investigate and follow up on--if we care enough about "uncovering the truth" to do so.
                      None of that explains this:
                      According to tradition, Rumi Maki is the combination of various fighting systems of the multiple cultures that populated Peru before the Inca era

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      I think it is rather unreasonable to expect Mr. Flores to bring all of his masters and fellow lineage-holders to each one of our doorsteps for the purpose of eliminating all doubt in our questioning minds.
                      It is unreasonable for Mr. Flores to say Rumi Maki is a combination of various fighting systems of the multiple cultures that populated Peru before the Inca era if he cannot prove that lineage to pre-Incan times.

                      Proving that Rumi Maki existed 20 years ago, 50 years ago, 100 years ago does not give him the right to make that claim.

                      Or does he has that right?

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      If I were in his position, I certainly wouldn't bother.
                      Whether he bothers with this or not is irrelevant to the facts at hand.

                      He claimed that Rumi Maki is a combination of various fighting systems of the multiple cultures that populated Peru before the Inca era.

                      If he doesn't bother to address questions about the validity of that claim, that does not, in any way, legitimize his position.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Thank you for your rudeness and extreme lack of courtesy.
                      It was my absolute pleasure to tell you how fucking stupid your position and notions are.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      A man shall be known by his words and conduct, and you are now known, sir.
                      Like if I gave a flying fuck about your fucking pedantic sensitivities.

                      This is not a fucking tea party where you can come and talk stupid retarded romantically patriotic crap and we are going to politely nod in approval just to be polite to you.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      It seems that my brief time on this forum has come to an end...for there is purpose in engaging in legitimate debate and exchange of information, but not in trading insults with base and dishonorable men.
                      Fuck you. I have no desire to exchange pleasantries with you. Give me facts, concede that Rumi Maki claims of antiquity are nothing but a ball of lying crap or get the fuck out.

                      It is people like you, like Mr. Flores, liars who concote romantic lies to our past who make our societies rotten. It is people like you who prefer idealistic lies over factual objectivism that keep dragging our nations down. I have no respect for such lies or the people who live by them.

                      Your notions of honorability mean nothing. If you were trully honorable, you would stop supporting Mr. Flores lies right once and for all. Using diplomacy and hipocritical politeness to let such lies pass unispected is dishonorable at best, fucking stupid at worse.

                      Originally posted by Lozenge123
                      Sir, I now leave you to the pleasure of your own company.
                      Don't let the door slam you hard on your ass on the way out.

                      :emo:
                      Adios...[/QUOTE]

                      Comment


                        #56
                        To Ddlr, dingirfecho, DCS, et all, my apologies for the rant. This is just too much to even treat politely.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Originally posted by Lozenge123
                          ...but not in trading insults with base and dishonorable men.

                          Sir, I now leave you to the pleasure of your own company.

                          Adios...
                          This is extremely funny when you take into account that short of calling Jamie Eason a fat slut, is very, very difficult to piss off El Macho.

                          oh, and Macho, you're a dishonorable man for not coming to the TD, back to the threat, it was a good read, let me know if you're going to dig a little more into this, I offer my spanish speaking mad skills for that task
                          Originally posted by Phrost
                          Yeah, you're probably right.

                          But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
                          Originally posted by Phrost
                          There are two kinds of members on MAP:

                          1. LARPers/Partial Artists
                          2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
                          The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

                          Originally posted by TheMightyMcClaw
                          Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
                          Get with the times and punch a chick.
                          Wingchundo's response after I called him a "pussy"

                          Originally posted by wingchundo
                          Hey, I resemble that remark!

                          Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

                          OK. Here goes.

                          You are what you eat!

                          Comment


                            #58
                            I have just read all the book and now I will comment some things about this thread. I woluld simply like to expose and clarify some points I found through this thread.


                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by Teh El Macho
                            Step 1

                            Now, if Mr. Flores can prove that his tradition comes from family/verbal tradition and that there are elders than can testify to objective 3rd parties something of a nature similar to Rumi Maki has existed for generations, even if in an uncodified, informal mode that could be taken as proof of authenticity (thus disproving in our minds that this is nothing more than a romantic manufacturing dating from the 60's and 70's and using the obscurity of those times to come to our present years to try to sell it as an authentic Peruvian Martial Art.)

                            Example of arts that have existed in an uncodified, informal, almost tribal/verbal tradition are such as Gaucho knife-fighting tradition, Garrote Larense, or the different machete fighting traditions that have come and go during the colonial and post-colonial history of Latin America.

                            If such evidence is presented, then Mr. Flores can rightly claim authenticity as a Peruvian Martial Art of post-colonial folk origin.



                            In this forum Ralph G wrote:

                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by
                            members, the traditional fighting system of andes is called AMACHAKUY. IT IS a headbutting , kneeing system . the general idea is to grab the back of your opponents head and use various headbutts and knees to lower body. it was documented by JACK GROVER. he was a martial artist that had a job in which he did field research all over the world in his 1958 book, DEFEND YOURSELF, he describes not only this peruvian art but muay thai , varmannie, karate and pankration--[ arts not well known at the time]---ralph g

                            Because of that, there are proofs of romantic manufacturingapproximately 1920 from when the timeline is indefinite until those who are considered the original compilers of these techniques. On the other hand, in the RM book's Epilogue it says:



                            As I understand, generations are considered from child to father, grandfather, greatgrandfather, an so on. Then, since the 50's how many generations had passed until the 2008? Maybe its difficult to obtain information of oral tradition beyond those dates, but there is information about this thread in earlier dates, and maybe this first step can be easily proford.

                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by Teh El Macho

                            Step 3


                            If there are colonial records at the time of the conquest indicating hand-to-hand martial tradition among the pre-conquest peoples of Peru, in addition to the criteria in step 2, then Mr. Flores can rightly claim or suggest that Rumi Maki is an authentic Peruvian Martial Art with a history verifiable to the colonial times and with a strong possibility that it had directly evolved from martial arts of the Incan era.




                            He went and raised the truncheon like he wanted to strike; if the young man showed the face of fear, he was removed and left so that all his life he would be a laborer. . .

                            Nevertheless, this quote has been misunderstood trying to give it other sense by some detractors. Also the book quotes the chronist Inca Garcilazo de la Vega about the Huarachico ceremony, (the text is too large to post it, but its from the 26th page to the 31st page). Therefore, the evidence of a martial practice codifided in the Inca time exists. This second step can also been proford.

                            Quote:
                            Originally Posted by Teh El Macho

                            Step 4

                            If there are colonial records at the time of the conquest of Inca historians narrating about martial traditions (in the form of oral history or legends), or if there is archeological evidence from before the establishment of the Tahuantinsuyo (specifically to the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku), and if steps 2 and 3 are met, then Mr. Flores can claim that Rumi Maki is an authentic Peruvian martial arts dated from the colonial era, most likely evolved from Incan martial traditions who themselves were possibly evolved from prior Pre-Incan, and specifically to the Moche, Chavin and Tiwanaku as generally claimed by the proponents of Rumi Maki.



                            The last step. The pre-incan origin. Lamentably I don't know about this. I have readen a bit and haven't found a recopilation by the spaniard or european chronist about the cultures before the Inca Civilization. All the works that exist about archeologic findings of the Pre-Incan Time are from the Republican time of Peru (as far as I know). Someone should make reference about the oral tradition and some coincident facts in the archeologic findings and the book doesn't offer more information about it, except the author's invitation to other instructors of this fighting method to bring more info and maybe with this information all the unclear point will be fulfilled. In some of the history books I read about the conquest policy of the Inca, it said they assimilate the technology of the conquered towns and share with them their culture making it better. Its possible that the same policy was applied to Rumi Maki and an assimilation of the combat forms of conquered owns existed. And because the Inca conquered the moche, chavin, tiwanaku and other cultures that were in their territory called Tahuantinsuyo is easy to deduce that it could be possible.

                            Hope I have help a little to clarify this thread

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Originally posted by iliaster



                              He went and raised the truncheon like he wanted to strike; if the young man showed the face of fear, he was removed and left so that all his life he would be a laborer. . .
                              http://www.artehistoria.jcyl.es/cron...xtos/10461.htm

                              Do you know now why these kind of things can't be approached in a non-scholar way?

                              There is more here about the conquest of Peru:

                              http://www.artehistoria.jcyl.es/cron...xtos/11495.htm
                              Last edited by DCS; 2/14/2008 5:13am, .

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Originally posted by Lozenge123
                                Interesting...however, there is an article on the Rumi Maki website dating from the 1970s. How come these Qechua didn't hear about it until the 1990s? Is it possible that they are not completely in the loop with respect to their Peruvian neighbors? I'm also curious...what is their exposure to Rumi Maki or to Flores? On what basis was the martial art reconstructed? From ancient texts containing actual techniques? I had been under the impression that these didn't exist. Or do they claim that Rumi Maki was essentially made up from scratch? I'm very curious to get a little more info from these folks, if they actually know all about it, or this is merely an assumption/opinion...

                                Comment

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