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Rumi Maki Peruvian Martial Arts

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    #31
    So I still raise the point, why not publish a DVD on the practises of the Peruvian highlanders today?

    P.S. Whilst browsing for that book via the link, I found a book on gypsy methods, also with a foreword by a ninja. Obviously, once again the sensible thing to do would be to go to gypsies and ask*

    *I asked a lady at the Brisbane markets whether gypsies really steal and fight with knives. As a person who had spent a large part of her life amongst them, she said yes they do, but only as an alternative to starving and getting the shit kicked out of them.
    Last edited by Toby Christensen; 12/14/2007 11:24pm, .

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      #32
      I propose an investigation on this, it could be fun
      Originally posted by Phrost
      Yeah, you're probably right.

      But still, something about having a black guy or a lesbian jump out from behind a garbage can yelling "SURPRISE GONG SAU" at any of your big-named RBSD kooks makes me giggle like a little girl.
      Originally posted by Phrost
      There are two kinds of members on MAP:

      1. LARPers/Partial Artists
      2. People who haven't heard about Bullshido.
      The Mighty McClaw to Fox when refusing to fight AnnaT.

      Originally posted by TheMightyMcClaw
      Don't fight girls? When are you living, the 1850's? I suppose you think they shouldn't work or vote either.
      Get with the times and punch a chick.
      Wingchundo's response after I called him a "pussy"

      Originally posted by wingchundo
      Hey, I resemble that remark!

      Ok, time for a snappy comeback.... uh...

      OK. Here goes.

      You are what you eat!

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        #33
        YO NO FUITU
        Last edited by El Mechador; 12/14/2007 6:59pm, .

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          #34
          Those sounds are like the music in capoeira, a chant for the combat.

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            #35
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinku

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              #36
              http://www.2camels.com/tinku-festival.php

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                #37
                Numerous criticisms cite false information

                I recently read the Rumi Maki book, and then came across this thread via a Google search. Although I cannot speak as to the efficiency of the Rumi Maki system (having never met Mr. Flores or any of his students), I do feel the need to point out that several derisive claims made about the book in this thread are downright false. For instance, "Teh El Macho" says:

                Originally posted by Teh El Macho

                Not only do they claim a Incan lineage, but a pre-Incan one. That's both convinient since you can't trace it, and more mystic and fascinating.
                There aren't many left who still preserve indigenous Peruvian martial culture however some of its combative manifestations can be seen in the diverse combative festivities of the Andean people such as the "Luchas de Tocto" in Chumbivilcas, the "Chiariaje" in Cuzco, the "Lucheo" in Ayacucho, or the "Tinkuy" in Bolivia.

                It claims that there aren't many left, which implies there are some, even a few. Why is it that there are no mention of them? Why isn't there a mention to these maestros?
                Well, if you take the time to actually read the book, you will find that the author provides quite a bit of information regarding these "maestros." More than a mere mention. In fact, Mr. Flores includes an elaborate lineage chart in his book, and a detailed account of the training he received. He states that he learned the various facets of Rumi Maki from three instructors: Eugenio Panta ("Sonquosua"), Huamani Challco, and Teodoro Ramirez. What is more, Mr. Flores lists the names of numerous OTHER students and instructors who also trained under the aforementioned masters. Presumably many of these individuals are still alive and would therefore be in a position to authenticate this system. Here are the names that Mr. Flores provides in the book:

                Trained under Eugenio Panta:

                Maurio Panduro
                Eulogio Huarcayo
                Jose Cajauilca
                Felipe Gutierrez
                Ignacio Quispe
                Freddy Quispe
                Demetrio Quispe

                Also trained under Huamani Challco:

                Carlos Gutierrez
                Jose Cealluco
                Miguel Prado
                Oscar Villanueva
                Julio Ninapampa
                Juan Prado
                Daniel Jaramillo
                Aurelio Perez
                Jorge Quispe

                Regarding the "absurdity" of Rumi Maki's pre-Incan origins: actually, the author is quite up front about the fact that this information comes from ORAL TRADITION. He does not state that it is an absolute truth; he notes that he is simply repeating the information passed down to him by his masters, which was passed down to them. There is nothing whatsoever misleading about the information he provides. It is up to the reader to decide how much truth there is to these oral traditions.

                There are also some individuals who have stated in this thread that there is no historical evidence that Rumi Maki ever existed. Once again, this is simply not true. Several chapters in the book contain historical passages, quoted from the first-hand accounts of Spanish explorers, which detail the martial culture and training that took place in the Incan villages. Although specific techniques are not described, it is quite clear from these accounts that there did in fact exist a distinct Incan martial art during the period of the Spanish conquest, and that it played a prominent role in Incan culture.

                Some posters in this thread have also pointed out (in an accusatory fashion) the fact that the author provides no information on techniques involving weapons. This is not entirely true...the author does show some unarmed defense against the staff. As to additional techniques, Mr. Flores is quite clear about why he does not provide this information in the book: out of respect for his masters. Armed combat was to be taught only after the mastery of unarmed techniques; and it is out of respect for this tradition that Mr. Flores provides us with only a small taste of the armed techniques.

                In fact, the only evidence I have seen stated in this thread that Mr. Flores is a fraud is the mention of an e-mail from an anonymous Peruvian "friend" who assumes that it is all BS. This is very shaky evidence--basically, unsubstantiated rumor and hearsay. Although I have never been to Peru, I have visited indigenous communities in Latin America, such as the Kuna and Embera, and found most of their culture and traditions to be quite intact...in fact the Embera still hunt with bow and arrows, and I watched them tip their arrowheads with the secreted poison of poison-dart frogs while on a hunt. Not exactly 21st century. It does not seem far-fetched to me at all that indigenous traditions could have also survived in Peru.

                So in the future, how about actually reading the book before casting stones? Citing false information for the supposed purpose of exposing "BS" is rather hypocritical, and causes me to question the motives of the individuals posting on this site. I for one am interested in learning more about Mr. Flores and his system, and observing it first-hand, before passing any further judgment.

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                  #38
                  Originally posted by Lozenge123

                  There are also some individuals who have stated in this thread that there is no historical evidence that Rumi Maki ever existed. Once again, this is simply not true. Several chapters in the book contain historical passages, quoted from the first-hand accounts of Spanish explorers, which detail the martial culture and training that took place in the Incan villages. Although specific techniques are not described, it is quite clear from these accounts that there did in fact exist a distinct Incan martial art during the period of the Spanish conquest, and that it played a prominent role in Incan culture.
                  Historical evidence that Incan culture produced codified fighting systems (which is highly likely to have been the case) is not proof that the martial art presented in the Rumi Maki book has any literal or lineal connection to those historical systems.

                  I've thumbed through the book and frankly the system looks like a modern reconstruction, probably inspired to some extent by oral tradition, folk-lore and bits and pieces of genuine Peruvian folk-combat. Personally I have no problem with that, I'm just cautious when the level of modern reconstruction - the creative input of contemporary practitioners - is left ambiguous.

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                    #39
                    @Lozenge123

                    Do you speak Spanish?

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                      #40
                      Proof

                      Originally posted by DdlR
                      Historical evidence that Incan culture produced codified fighting systems (which is highly likely to have been the case) is not proof that the martial art presented in the Rumi Maki book has any literal or lineal connection to those historical systems.
                      "Proof?" Of course not. For that matter, what would constitute proof? A series of hieroglyphic certificates of master-to-student transmission spanning the last 2000 years? If that's what is required, then I don't think we'll ever see any definite "proof," in this life or the next.

                      However, a lack of absolute proof does not mean that the system is a fake, either. As it stands, Mr. Flores has already provided quite a bit of information about his masters, and the list of fellow students/instructors who studied under them. He has certainly provided a large list of people who could prove his system false (thru testimony, or if it turned out that they did not exist).

                      Once again, I cannot speak as to the efficiency or authenticity of the Rumi Maki system (having never seen it used in person); I just think it unwise and unjust to condemn the man with false information, or assume that he is a liar for no good reason.

                      Ultimately, my experience has been that you absolutely cannot judge a martial art based on pictures in a book. You have to see it used in earnest against a fully resisting opponent in order to get an idea as to how effective it truly is.

                      DCS, I do speak some very basic Spanish. Enough to get by in a coffee shop, anyway...not enough to hold a detailed discussion on martial arts.

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                        #41
                        Originally posted by Lozenge123
                        "Proof?" Of course not. For that matter, what would constitute proof? A series of hieroglyphic certificates of master-to-student transmission spanning the last 2000 years? If that's what is required, then I don't think we'll ever see any definite "proof," in this life or the next.
                        I've made the same point myself in similar discussions. However, you said:

                        There are also some individuals who have stated in this thread that there is no historical evidence that Rumi Maki ever existed. Once again, this is simply not true.
                        My counter-point was that whereas there is evidence that Incan cultures produced codified fighting styles, that evidence does not support the historical existence of what the book presents as Rumi Maki.

                        However, a lack of absolute proof does not mean that the system is a fake, either. As it stands, Mr. Flores has already provided quite a bit of information about his masters, and the list of fellow students/instructors who studied under them. He has certainly provided a large list of people who could prove his system false (thru testimony, or if it turned out that they did not exist).
                        As the one making the claim of lineal descent from Incan fighting arts, the onus would be on Mr. Flores to back that claim up. The list of names is a starting point; uncharitably, it could also be read as a bluff, on the assumption that Mr. Flores is aware of the chances against a skeptic actually tracking down and contacting the people named in the list for purposes of verification.

                        We have Spanish-speaking people here who have taken an interest in this subject; perhaps if Mr. Flores or a representative shows up as well, they could direct us to third parties who could provide supporting evidence.

                        Once again, I cannot speak as to the efficiency or authenticity of the Rumi Maki system (having never seen it used in person); I just think it unwise and unjust to condemn the man with false information, or assume that he is a liar for no good reason.
                        Mr. Flores is in the challenging position of introducing a hitherto unknown martial art, of purportedly ancient lineage, into the cultural mainstream via his book. Unfortunately, this situation is common enough to have become something of a cliche. Mr. Flores is in the same position as Gamal Selim (a.k.a. Ramses Seleem) who purports to teach a 40,000 year old Egyptian martial art called Sebekkha (search for it here, if you're interested); it's an extraordinary claim and it requires extraordinary proof.

                        I'll confess my bias by admitting that I have a decades-long interest in historically and culturally obscure fighting arts, and that I have seen some cases in which such claims turn out to be the gospel truth (those are my favorites). I have seen many more cases in which the martial art in question turns out to be a combination of some partially codified folk-combat skills together with experimentation and historical wishful thinking. In these cases, the promoter is often a sincere, creative and dedicated martial artist with an interest in history and a strong sense of national/cultural pride; nothing at all wrong with that, in fact I encourage it.

                        My only problem with this paradigm is when the promoter/founder is ambiguous about the actual history of their style, vis-a-vis their own creative input. I've seen it happen over and over again wherein, having developed a style that they sincerely believe represents the way their ancestors fought, such promoters then go the extra yard and lead or allow people to believe that what they are teaching literally is the way their ancestors fought (lineal descent, etc.)

                        Anyway, I'm not categorically saying that this is the case re. the Rumi Maki book, just that such is my impression based on what I've seen of it so far. I sincerely hope that this style does turn out to be historically and culturally authentic; the discovery of any codified cultural system that literally extends back to the Incan civilization would be very significant.

                        Ultimately, my experience has been that you absolutely cannot judge a martial art based on pictures in a book. You have to see it used in earnest against a fully resisting opponent in order to get an idea as to how effective it truly is.
                        I agree, and note that I'm not addressing Rumi Maki's effectiveness as a fighting style, just Mr. Flores' claims about its history.

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                          #42

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                            #43
                            DdlR, thanks for your thoughtful reply. It seems that you have come across a few charlatans out there, and thus your skepticism is completely understandable.

                            I too have come across a few frauds in my own time. However, I have also encountered a few cases wherein a legitimate, highly skilled martial arts instructor is derided and condemned simply because the art that he practices is extremely rare, even in danger of dying out. In one of these cases, I myself did the research and found out that quite a bit of written/printed evidence DID exist testifying to its survival. Other people, however, simply ignorant of this evidence, had assumed that it did not exist before even bothering to look into it. This, however, has nothing to do with Rumi Maki--I simply offer it as a frame of reference pertaining to where I am coming from. The result is that I am now skeptical of unfounded skepticism, i.e. condemning someone without taking the time to get all the info (I am referring to other posters in this thread, not you, by the way).

                            Originally posted by DdlR

                            As the one making the claim of lineal descent from Incan fighting arts, the onus would be on Mr. Flores to back that claim up. The list of names is a starting point; uncharitably, it could also be read as a bluff, on the assumption that Mr. Flores is aware of the chances against a skeptic actually tracking down and contacting the people named in the list for purposes of verification.

                            Mr. Flores is in the challenging position of introducing a hitherto unknown martial art, of purportedly ancient lineage, into the cultural mainstream via his book. Unfortunately, this situation is common enough to have become something of a cliche. Mr. Flores is in the same position as Gamal Selim (a.k.a. Ramses Seleem) who purports to teach a 40,000 year old Egyptian martial art called Sebekkha (search for it here, if you're interested); it's an extraordinary claim and it requires extraordinary proof.
                            Again, however, I ask: what proof would be good enough? What "evidence" would satisfy people here? The Gamal Selim case seems a rather extreme case for comparison. With Rumi Maki, we're not talking about 40,000 years---only about 400. And even if the author cannot provide "extraordinary proof," does this still definitely mean that the system is a fraud? What if it is extremely effective? In my experience, highly effective systems don't spring to life out of the grass. That is why I really feel that I have to see it in action in order to make up my mind about the authenticity issue.

                            Originally posted by DdlR
                            My only problem with this paradigm is when the promoter/founder is ambiguous about the actual history of their style, vis-a-vis their own creative input. I've seen it happen over and over again wherein, having developed a style that they sincerely believe represents the way their ancestors fought, such promoters then go the extra yard and lead or allow people to believe that what they are teaching literally is the way their ancestors fought (lineal descent, etc.)
                            I hear you. But having read the book, I don't think Flores is being ambiguous. He clearly states that this is an indigenous system with indigenous roots, passed down through the generations. He is saying that it is NOT reconstruction, although he admits that it was slightly influenced by other cultures, i.e. the Spanish, etc.. There is no ambiguity here. Either the system is authentic, as Mr. Flores states, or it is not.

                            Originally posted by DdlR
                            Anyway, I'm not categorically saying that this is the case re. the Rumi Maki book, just that such is my impression based on what I've seen of it so far. I sincerely hope that this style does turn out to be historically and culturally authentic; the discovery of any codified cultural system that literally extends back to the Incan civilization would be very significant.
                            I hope so too! All the best...

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                              #44
                              Lozenge, what do you think of the lack of evidence of Rumi Maki in tinkus?

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                                #45
                                Interesting...however, there is an article on the Rumi Maki website dating from the 1970s. How come these Qechua didn't hear about it until the 1990s? Is it possible that they are not completely in the loop with respect to their Peruvian neighbors? I'm also curious...what is their exposure to Rumi Maki or to Flores? On what basis was the martial art reconstructed? From ancient texts containing actual techniques? I had been under the impression that these didn't exist. Or do they claim that Rumi Maki was essentially made up from scratch? I'm very curious to get a little more info from these folks, if they actually know all about it, or this is merely an assumption/opinion...

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