More BJJ bullshido - The Gracie Combatives Licensing Program™

[Team Python]

How often are sport techniques going to come up in a self defense scenario? If your getting punched at you are going to cover up. I find if baffling that the sports guy mentality isn't going to change at all from sport to self defense. Lets face it the sports guy mentality changes from drills, to rolling, to competition why wouldn't it change when to self defense in that situation?

You will respond the way you train.......under stressful situations the body will react to what it is used to.....so if you have bad habits then you could leave your self open. Why don't you roll with several people and have them punch you any way they want......try seeing if you can deal with the strikes easily without proper training.

I have had guys visit my school and they come from a school that mostly trains for competition. When they participate in our Vale-Tudo classes and get hit several times they quickly realize there is more to dealing with punches than they thought....it changes your whole game.

[goodlun]

Sport technique would be anything that leaves you open to strikes. You eighter keep them real close to where their strikes are ineffective or at a distance where they can't reach you. Sport techniques such as upside down gaurd leaves you open for strikes so it is useless in a real fight.

Like I said schools are going back to the way it was because they are realizing it is self defense is an important part of BJJ than sport.

How often are sport techniques going to come up in a self defense scenario? If your getting punched at you are going to cover up. I find if baffling that the sports guy mentality isn't going to change at all from sport to self defense. Lets face it the sports guy mentality changes from drills, to rolling, to competition why wouldn't it change when to self defense in that situation?

[Team Python]

I'm still not sure it is anything but a shift in marketing, rather than a significant change in technique. After all, a triangle is a triangle, whether or not it is taught by somebody labelling themselves as 'self defence' jiu jitsu or 'sport' jiu jitsu. Comparing how it is taught on the Gracie Combatives DVDs and how I've seen it taught in class (I've trained at six schools now), I don't see a revolutionary difference.

What would you define as sport techniques? I hear people point to things like flying triangles and inverted guard, but in almost every school I've attended, there is some kind of basics/fundamentals class which sticks to basic armbar, triangle, cross-choke, escapes, transition to mount from side control etc.

It would certainly seem that the success of Gracie Combatives has made an impact, as I'm hearing a lot more talk about 'sport' jiu jitsu vs 'self defence' jiu jitsu from various schools. Gracie Barra has its own series of Gracie Barra Fundamentals DVDs, and Alliance has recently started up a self defence focused course: the language is very reminiscent of the Gracie Academy.



As ever, Rorion's marketing appears to be very effective, as apparently other schools are picking up on it (to be fair, it is possible that other schools have had programs like this in the works for a long time, so perhaps it is just a coincidence).

Sport technique would be anything that leaves you open to strikes. You eighter keep them real close to where their strikes are ineffective or at a distance where they can't reach you. Sport techniques such as upside down gaurd leaves you open for strikes so it is useless in a real fight.

Like I said schools are going back to the way it was because they are realizing it is self defense is an important part of BJJ than sport.

[goodlun]

I think what is being said is if your INSTRUCTOR is getting certified by this method of DVD and he is a certified Gracie Intstructor, wouldn't your training suffer?

Let's say I'm some fat 40 year old guy who see's gracie jiu jitsu here sign and comes in to learn BJJ. How would I feel that my instructor was trained and certified through tape...I keep thinking of this:

YouTube - Eric Ingram's Blue Belt Test - Drill 5 - Freestyle Fight Simulation

they watched this and gave him a blue belt...a similar system is being used to certify instructors.

So because they made special dispensation for a guy who is at a physical disadvantage compared to the majority of people who go for blue belt you think the whole system is a wreck?

[slideyfoot]

Exactly......it has changed for the better. People are realizing that there is more to BJJ than sport techniques.

I'm still not sure it is anything but a shift in marketing, rather than a significant change in technique. After all, a triangle is a triangle, whether or not it is taught by somebody labelling themselves as 'self defence' jiu jitsu or 'sport' jiu jitsu. Comparing how it is taught on the Gracie Combatives DVDs and how I've seen it taught in class (I've trained at six schools now), I don't see a revolutionary difference.

What would you define as sport techniques? I hear people point to things like flying triangles and inverted guard, but in almost every school I've attended, there is some kind of basics/fundamentals class which sticks to basic armbar, triangle, cross-choke, escapes, transition to mount from side control etc.

I see a lot of academies going back to the roots of BJJ. Even in Gracie Humaita they have the fundalmentals class which you must take as a beginner which consits of self defense techniques only.

It would certainly seem that the success of Gracie Combatives has made an impact, as I'm hearing a lot more talk about 'sport' jiu jitsu vs 'self defence' jiu jitsu from various schools. Gracie Barra has its own series of Gracie Barra Fundamentals DVDs, and Alliance has recently started up a self defence focused course: the language is very reminiscent of the Gracie Academy.

Fabio and Jacare led a crash course in their teaching methodology and built a new training system based around Self Defense and Jiu-Jitsu Fundamentals. The purpose of this system is to ensure that new students have the tools to able to effectively defend themselves against a bigger more aggressive opponent.

There is nothing revolutionary about this approach, quite the opposite actually. With the popularity of Sport Jiu-Jitsu, Instructors have begun neglecting the some of the key principles that make Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu so affective.

As ever, Rorion's marketing appears to be very effective, as apparently other schools are picking up on it (to be fair, it is possible that other schools have had programs like this in the works for a long time, so perhaps it is just a coincidence).

[Team Python]

For tl;dr - the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program (2007) and the Gracie Combatives DVDs (2009) are two different things. As far as I can tell, the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program has been replaced by the Instructor Certification Program. This thread is three years old: since it has been resurrected, people are confusing the DVDs with the old licensing program.

For anyone with a longer attention span:



From the sound of it, Team Python is talking about the Gracie Combatives DVDs from 2009 (i.e., this), which is not the same thing as the original thread topic, despite the confusingly similar name (the licensing program appears to have been something of a precursor to the DVDs). The DVDs aren't intended to qualify you to teach.

Previously, this thread was about the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program, which is the 80 hour course you're referring to. Here's a video where Rener talks about the program in 2007, which is the same year this thread was originally started:

YouTube - Gracie Combatives Licensing Intro

Looking at the website, that video is now out of date. They instead have something called the Instructor Certification Program:



So, there is now clearly an online element to this certification, but you also have to go attend the Academy in person.



However, I don't see where it says exactly what is required for the Gracie Academy to make that verification. This last bit is also interesting:

Exactly......it has changed for the better. People are realizing that there is more to BJJ than sport techniques. I see a lot of academies going back to the roots of BJJ. Even in Gracie Humaita they have the fundalmentals class which you must take as a beginner which consits of self defense techniques only. See below

"The Gracie San Diego Fundamentals Program consists of a continuous 16 week course, designed to teach the overall self-defense strategy of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It will teach you the basics, from learning how to fall, to clinching, taking down and successfully setting up and applying a submission hold as well as various escapes. This technique repetition filled stage of your training will slowly prepare you to begin drilling at a full resistance in the following program."

In my Academy I have a beginners class that consist of my "Street Combat Readiness" course. It consists of basic BJJ techniques geared for street fighting. New students also have the chance to train in Vale-Tudo classes as well. Once they complete the beginners class they are ready to jump to the intermediate classes where they learn competiton techniques.

Since I have implemented this program my students enrollment has gone up. Majority of my studnents want to learn BJJ for self protection and not for competition. However we do take students to tournaments and they do quite well. It is all about having a well rounded program. I was taught that BJJ has three components.....Self Defense, Vale-Tudo and Competition and that is the way I keep it.

[slideyfoot]

For tl;dr - the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program (2007) and the Gracie Combatives DVDs (2009) are two different things. As far as I can tell, the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program has been replaced by the Instructor Certification Program. This thread is three years old: since it has been resurrected, people are confusing the DVDs with the old licensing program.

For anyone with a longer attention span:

I was under the impression that these guys got 80 hours of instruction in person is that no longer the case?

From the sound of it, Team Python is talking about the Gracie Combatives DVDs from 2009 (i.e., this), which is not the same thing as the original thread topic, despite the confusingly similar name (the licensing program appears to have been something of a precursor to the DVDs). The DVDs aren't intended to qualify you to teach.

Previously, this thread was about the Gracie Combatives Licensing Program, which is the 80 hour course you're referring to. Here's a video where Rener talks about the program in 2007, which is the same year this thread was originally started:

YouTube - Gracie Combatives Licensing Intro

Looking at the website, that video is now out of date. They instead have something called the Instructor Certification Program:

Due to the segmented nature of the curriculum, a Gracie Academy Certified Training Center can be recognized at one of five certification levels. Each level requires successful completion of a highly comprehensive instructor certification course which consists of live training at the Gracie Academy headquarters in Torrance, California, as well as extensive online learning at www.GRACIEUNIVERSITY.com.

So, there is now clearly an online element to this certification, but you also have to go attend the Academy in person.

However, I don't see where it says exactly what is required for the Gracie Academy to make that verification. This last bit is also interesting:

The primary objective of the Global Training Program is to make Gracie Jiu-Jitsu available around the world in its purest form. Although we make every effort to select individuals with great character traits, we realize that not all instructors are equally committed to upholding the integrity of the art. For this reason, we rely heavily on the students to report any potential incidences of instructor malpractice so that we may take immediate corrective measures. At the same time, we highly encourage all students to send us their positive feedback regarding their experiences at the Certified Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Training Center they frequent.

[Team Python]

I think what is being said is if your INSTRUCTOR is getting certified by this method of DVD and he is a certified Gracie Intstructor, wouldn't your training suffer?

Let's say I'm some fat 40 year old guy who see's gracie jiu jitsu here sign and comes in to learn BJJ. How would I feel that my instructor was trained and certified through tape...I keep thinking of this:

YouTube - Eric Ingram's Blue Belt Test - Drill 5 - Freestyle Fight Simulation

they watched this and gave him a blue belt...a similar system is being used to certify instructors.

Like I said I don't agree with earning belts via internet.......but who is going to stop them. If you look at a Gracie Academy class in session they have over 100 students per class......shit if I had that many I would not have to work.

They are capitalizing on the fact that a lot of BJJ school are concentrating on sport. A lot of people don't want to compete instead they want to learn how to protect themselves. That is why BJJ schools that have a well rounded program are going to have a versatile student base. Shit the Gracies are probably glad a lot of schools keep training the way they do.....it is more money for them. I myself train the "Old School" way and my students love it. I also get students from other schools after they realize they are not learning anything to protect themselves from their previous BJJ school.

[RaiderFunk]

I think its the case of who is learning.....some people can pick up things just by watching....others need to be shown hands on. So can everybody learn from the DVD's? Probably not.

Look if you don't like the DVD's then don't buy it...stick with what you are currently using and let those who feel they should buy it...buy it.

I think what is being said is if your INSTRUCTOR is getting certified by this method of DVD and he is a certified Gracie Intstructor, wouldn't your training suffer?

Let's say I'm some fat 40 year old guy who see's gracie jiu jitsu here sign and comes in to learn BJJ. How would I feel that my instructor was trained and certified through tape...I keep thinking of this:

YouTube - Eric Ingram's Blue Belt Test - Drill 5 - Freestyle Fight Simulation

they watched this and gave him a blue belt...a similar system is being used to certify instructors.

[goodlun]

That's not really the problem that people here have with the program.

The problem is that people who take this course are usually learning out of a video or off a karate/TKD instructor who themselves is just going off a video and maybe a few seminars. So the question is if, regardless of how good the content and presentation of the videos is, are they going to be able to learn this stuff properly?

There's also the issue of telling people that as they're preparing to fight an unskilled opponent. I think it's an unhealthy assumption. Yes it's true that most people won't know grappling, but if you've only half-assed your own training, expecting to fight chumps, you're going to get a nasty surprise when it comes to using this stuff for real.

I was under the impression that these guys got 80 hours of instruction in person is that no longer the case?

[Team Python]

That's not really the problem that people here have with the program.

The problem is that people who take this course are usually learning out of a video or off a karate/TKD instructor who themselves is just going off a video and maybe a few seminars. So the question is if, regardless of how good the content and presentation of the videos is, are they going to be able to learn this stuff properly?

There's also the issue of telling people that as they're preparing to fight an unskilled opponent. I think it's an unhealthy assumption. Yes it's true that most people won't know grappling, but if you've only half-assed your own training, expecting to fight chumps, you're going to get a nasty surprise when it comes to using this stuff for real.

I think its the case of who is learning.....some people can pick up things just by watching....others need to be shown hands on. So can everybody learn from the DVD's? Probably not.

Look if you don't like the DVD's then don't buy it...stick with what you are currently using and let those who feel they should buy it...buy it.

[CrackFox]

I think it does. There is nothing on the DVD's that would not work in a street fight against an unskilled fighter so buying them would be beneficial.

That's not really the problem that people here have with the program.

The problem is that people who take this course are usually learning out of a video or off a karate/TKD instructor who themselves is just going off a video and maybe a few seminars. So the question is if, regardless of how good the content and presentation of the videos is, are they going to be able to learn this stuff properly?

There's also the issue of telling people that as they're preparing to fight an unskilled opponent. I think it's an unhealthy assumption. Yes it's true that most people won't know grappling, but if you've only half-assed your own training, expecting to fight chumps, you're going to get a nasty surprise when it comes to using this stuff for real.

[Team Python]

I'm not debating that BJJ has become very sport focused. What I am asking is if this program does actually delivers on its claims.

I think it does. There is nothing on the DVD's that would not work in a street fight against an unskilled fighter so buying them would be beneficial.

[CrackFox]

There is some truth to what they say about BJJ. I have trained with Red & Black belts and Red Belts that are not Gracies who say that BJJ is being watered down. According to them a lot of schools are concentrating on just learning sport Jiu-jitsu and leaving out Vale-Tudo and self defense training out of their teaching. Being well rounded is the key and this is the way I learned BJJ from day one when I started in 1995.

I'm not debating that BJJ has become very sport focused. What I am asking is if this program does actually delivers on its claims.

[Team Python]

Yes, as has been stated plenty of times here before, those are the claims they make.

In your opinion does the program deliver on these claims? What reasoning do you use to reach your conclusion?

There is some truth to what they say about BJJ. I have trained with Red & Black belts and Red Belts that are not Gracies who say that BJJ is being watered down. According to them a lot of schools are concentrating on just learning sport Jiu-jitsu and leaving out Vale-Tudo and self defense training out of their teaching. Being well rounded is the key and this is the way I learned BJJ from day one when I started in 1995.