More BJJ bullshido - The Gracie Combatives Licensing Program™

[Teh El Macho]

I dont doubt it doesnt take long to learn 34 techniques...I skimmed thru the BJJ book, and know most od the moves off by heart

Really? Can you execute them against a resisting sparring partner who's trying to do the same thing to you? Because that's the key to learning.

I know what a gogoplata looks like and what needs to be done to get it (sorta), but fuck me that I'll ever gonna slap it on someone (unless he is in a comma.) Knowing what a technique is called, what it looks like and how its execution gets described in a book is not the same as knowing how to perform the technique under pressure.

That's the true test of knowledge. That the baseline. That's the minimum which is required to say "I know how to do this technique." This is where the concern is with the Gracies' program:

Is an 80-hour/2 week program a good vehicle for someone to learn these combative techniques with enough dept to qualify him for teaching it to others? Perhaps there are requirements imposed by the Gracies on potential students (I dunno, athletic ability, MA background, and so forth.)

A person with natural abilites and with a base on Judo or Wrestling may be able to pull it off compared to a boxer (no disrespect intended.)

I gotta disagree with you Upa regarding your point #1 (the 80 hour a week thing.) Two weeks is too short of a time frame - sparring will be severily limited. How often can these students possibly spar in 2 weeks? Overload and physical exhaustion will take its toll.

I suspect the ratio of drill time/mat time in those 80 hours will be much greater than what you'd see in 80 hours of training in a regular grappling school over a 10 month period (assuming 2 hours of training a week.)

but its Mcdojo nonetheless

No disagreement here, brother. But Mcdojoism by itself is not that bad provided that what's being taught is not bullshit.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

Is an 80-hour/2 week program a good vehicle for someone to learn these combative techniques with enough dept to qualify him for teaching it to others?

I'm going to go ahead and say "No" to this.

However, I'll also argue that this class has a different purpose than that.

The Combatives course is not meant to be a replacement for good Jiu-Jitsu training. It's not even designed to be a thorough Jiu-Jitsu course. It seems to me the purpose of the course is solely to introduce a few basic concepts of grappling into other martial programs. I don't think the Combatives course is pretending to do anything besides teaching basic techniques.

Now, I'm extremely new to BJJ. I've had only four classes, so far, and a little bit of book knowledge before that. Until last night, I did not know the proper technique for attacking a resisting opponent with either a triangle or an armbar from my guard. And yet, while rolling with other guys-- fully resisting opponents-- that have little or no knowledge of Jiu-Jitsu, I've been able to apply armbars, triangles, Kimuras, Americanas, and a host of other techniques that I've only seen in books.

In my opinion, the Combatives course isn't supposed to even the ground between a Grappler and a non-Grappler. It's supposed to give a non-Grappler a bit of an advantage over another non-Grappler.

--Joe

[Askari]

In my opinion, the Combatives course isn't supposed to even the ground between a Grappler and a non-Grappler. It's supposed to give a non-Grappler a bit of an advantage over another non-Grappler.

There giving out a blue belt.

:director2

A blue belt - from a hard knox club - is usually at a bit more then just a slight advantage over a non-grappler.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

There giving out a blue belt.

:director2

A blue belt - from a hard knox club - is usually at a bit more then just a slight advantage over a non-grappler.

No, they're giving out a "technical" blue belt. Now, I'll grant you that the distinction asbolutely wreaks of McDojo, but it's a distinction nonetheless. The instructor can then promote up to a fourth degree white belt. Well, whoop-dee-doo! Honestly, what the hell does that mean? Especially when a legit Gracie instructor is required for any actual promotion. Certainly McDojo tactics-- making people feel like they're advancing so they have better morale-- but it's not THAT terrible.

To reiterate a point that others have made, it would be different if they were combining McDojo advertising with bogus technique. But these aren't Dim Mak strikes and ki blasts. Honestly, I'd say this whole program is still about a million times better than, say, your average YMCA/YWCA self-defense class.

--Joe

[Askari]

No, they're giving out a "technical" blue belt.

Potato, Potatoe.

Do you actually think this guy is going to tell people he is 'technically' a blue belt in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, or is he going to put the certificate on the wall, wear a blue belt at the BJJ seminar and tell people he has his blue belt?

[M1K3]

There giving out a blue belt.

:director2

A blue belt - from a hard knox club - is usually at a bit more then just a slight advantage over a non-grappler.

No, they are giving a "technical blue belt", what ever that means but I don't think it is going to be the same as a BJJ blue belt, because GJJ is NOT a sporting martial art. And the rift gets ever wider.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

Potato, Potatoe.

Do you actually think this guy is going to tell people he is 'technically' a blue belt in Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, or is he going to put the certificate on the wall, wear a blue belt at the BJJ seminar and tell people he has his blue belt?

Considering these are people who are already instructors, I have a feeling they'll continue wearing their Black Belt from whatever art they train in, already. Even if he runs his own BJJ seminar, the average Joe-Schmo consumer is going to think more highly of a Krotty Black Belt than a Gracie Jiu-Jitsu Blue Belt.

And if he goes to a BJJ seminar that he's not running and claims to be a real Blue Belt, no harm done, since he's gonna get his ass kicked when everyone starts rolling.

--Joe

[roscopeeco]

@Kung-Fu Joe
You're either:

1. a big monster freak
2. bullshitting
3. a genius

it took me 4 months to get my first triangle and i've yet to get an armbar. Plenty of chokes and a few americanerish variations but all of my armbar attempts have been rather pathetic.

[slideyfoot]

Some further responses about the program from Rener over on Sherdog, via Frodo (presumably same guy who posted earlier on here?). I think the two most interesting quotes are these:

In our opinion there are two types of belts, competition blue belts and technical blue belts. A competition blue belt is awarded to someone who excels in tournaments. A technical blue belt is someone who excels in learning the essential Gracie Jiu-Jitsu techniques that once perfected will enable them to defeat a larger stronger opponent in a real street fight.

[...]We will not be giving belts to anyone who doesn't perfect the techniques, regardless of what they are paying.

He points out the distinction between what he calls a 'technical' blue belt and a 'competition' blue belt, which therefore would appear to indicate that the Gracie Combatives 'blue belt' is indeed separate from the usual rank system.

[wingchundo]

To me, it comes down to this: If the techniques are not properly pressure-tested, they're bullshit. Screw this distinction between "competition" and "technical." Sure there's a difference between competing in tournies and not, but even still, you're sparring a shitload to be able to reach blue belt at legit schools.

As a white belt, I've learned a lot of techniques over a period longer than 80 hours. Can I pull them off in a realistic, sparring setting? Some of them on people at my level sometimes, rarely on someone blue or above.

But it sounds like I've got more sparring experience than these "technical" blue belts will have.

I guess at least it will allow a shitload of white belts to say they've tapped blue belts.

[Kung-Fu Joe]

@Kung-Fu Joe
You're either:

1. a big monster freak
2. bullshitting
3. a genius

it took me 4 months to get my first triangle and i've yet to get an armbar. Plenty of chokes and a few americanerish variations but all of my armbar attempts have been rather pathetic.

Again, I'll reiterate that the guys I was rolling with when I actually pulled those off had little to no BJJ knowledge, at all. In the case of the triangle, it was because the guy was posturing poorly while attempting to pass my guard-- he made a dumb mistake, and I capitalized. The armbars mostly came from full mount against guys who didn't know they'd have been better off in guard (though I did score a few from side-control on Wednesday after passing my buddy's guard-- they were sloppy, but he's as new as I am). As for the Kimura and the Americana, the guys I landed those against had absolutely no clue what they were, and as a result, didn't do a whole lot to stop me from attacking. They were content to keep punching me with their free hand, which was fine by me.

Now, I'm not claiming to be anything special. My ass gets owned when I roll with anybody who has even a modicum of experience. But against guys who've never grappled before, even my extremely rudimentary knowledge of BJJ is a nice advantage.

I'm certainly no big monster freak-- I'm 6'1", and 185 pounds. I'm not bullshitting, though I really can't expect you to believe otherwise since I'm not offering any proof beyond my words. I do have a respectably high IQ, but if that made me a good fighter, I wouldn't have to train MMA, hehehehe... So I'm gonna have to go with "None of the Above," for now.

--Joe

[roscopeeco]

@Kung-Fu Joe
Fair play to you then good luck with the training

[Matt W.]

Maybe I've been brainwashed by the Gracies. Lord knows I've been accused of that before. ...But this doesn't seem that bad to me. I look at it the same way I view "ground survival" in defensive tactics. It's not going to enable someone to compete at anything but the most basic level with even other regularly training white belts, let alone blues. But it does exactly what it is advertised to do, which is give someone a chance to "survive" on the ground long enough to escape or for back up to arrive. The ground survival course for DT instructors is 16 hours.

This course is 80 hours of intensive intruction from experts. And it is a FAR superior way for the local TKD place to add some ground fighting to their curriculum instead of "discovering" the secret ground techniques that have always been hidden in their forms.

[nobleidea]

HA!HA!HA!HA! The Bullshido/ BJJ nutriders must all be about to commit ritual suicide! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

This made my mother fucking day! So many ass monkeys on this site have endlessly worshiped the Gracies and now, oh yes, now only at the end do realize---98% of the martial arts is BULLSHIDO! *Lighting shoots from fingers; young luke writhes in pain*:tongue11:

[Teh El Macho]

Uhmmm, no. The majority have never worshipped the Gracies. In fact, their tactics have always been put into question. Search for a thread made by Yrkoon a while ago on this particular subject.

One thing is certain:

At least the Gracies know how to fight, unlike others who will inevitably look into this thread and laugh their asses off as they try to rationalize it as a form of vindication for the delutions.

And at the end of the day, that's what matters. Can you fight or not? That is the question. McDojo? Yes. Bullshit? Not so.