More BJJ bullshido - The Gracie Combatives Licensing Program™

[slideyfoot]

The problem is that this thread started with the following quote

Although that is an old version of the program: it is no longer two weeks. Instead, they now require a 90/100 or greater score on the blue belt test, followed by that 52 lesson online course, five videos and finally a two-day live evaluation.

On balance, that should work out rather longer (I would assume several months of training, to first get the blue belt then to go through the instructor course). On the other hand, this new version has even less physical interaction with qualified instructors than the previous two week incarnation.

I'm assuming Like_A_Boss trains with Gary 'sapateiro' King, who is teaching Gracie Combatives the right way (i.e., also has his team enter competitions, spar etc), judging by King's posts elsewhere. Although I'm sure King learned how to teach through hands-on practice, not online learning followed by a two-day evaluation. I could be wrong, though: would be interesting to hear his thoughts on the new Instructor Certification Program.

[Like_A_Boss]

This is perfectly fine in my book. I suppose you could argue about how much time to spend doing just drills before you get to rolling, but that's a matter of opinion as far as I'm concerned.

The problem is that this thread started with the following quote:
This is total bullshit.

Agreed

[CrackFox]

I train at a Academy where they teach the Gracie combatives to beginners, sure you don’t roll or do competition but that’s only for maybe the first three to four months, once you have gone through the combatives a few times you join the advanced guys and then it's business as usual.

This is perfectly fine in my book. I suppose you could argue about how much time to spend doing just drills before you get to rolling, but that's a matter of opinion as far as I'm concerned.

The problem is that this thread started with the following quote:

Attention All Martial Arts Instructors

Become an official Gracie Family Representative

Get Certified to Teach in 2 Weeks

No Previous Grappling Experience

Turn your school into a (image of Gracie Combatives Certified Training Center)

This is total bullshit.

[Like_A_Boss]

Because the formula doesn't include rolling or competition, and there is no one who knows what they're doing to supervise it.

I train at a Academy where they teach the Gracie combatives to beginners, sure you don’t roll or do competition but that’s only for maybe the first three to four months, once you have gone through the combatives a few times you join the advanced guys and then it's business as usual. Sure I would have liked to roll from day one but at least by the time you get to roll you know a few things.

Now if my instructor was someone who got a blue belt over the net I would not feel the same way, but my instructors are brown belts and have studied BJJ for about 10 years.

So my point is Gracie combatives from a legit instructor, in my opinion is not a bad way to learn BJJ in the beginning, but learning from a guy who got his blue online, I don’t think so.

[CrackFox]

I don't see if someone followed the formula how the could go wrong.

Because the formula doesn't include rolling or competition, and there is no one who knows what they're doing to supervise it.

[Punisher]

That's true, and it is good to have some kind of standardisation in place, which could counteract a general problem in martial arts and self defence: anyone can throw on a black belt, make up a martial art, fabricate years of street fighting and tournament victories, then open up a school. That doesn't look like it will be possible with this Instructor Certification Program.

The main concern is whether or not is it really possible to take somebody with no prior teaching experience, run them through an online program, and produce a capable instructor after meeting them in person for two days. I see according to the last lesson mentioned on the website that you are supposed to submit five videos: I'm hoping at least one of those will be of you teaching a class. It will be good to hear from someone who has gone through the program: are you intending to enrol, Punisher?

I'm a lot more comfortable with the process I've seen in the past (e.g., at the Roger Gracie Academy), which is that you start by helping out teach classes (often beginning with kids), then move on to assistant instructor, eventually taking beginner classes, then as you progress up the belts, you teach more advanced students. That process normally takes many years, with a black belt present to see what you're doing before they give their blessing for you to teach on your own. However, that does lack standardisation, and will most likely vary from school to school.

The Gracie ICP has only just been launched, so I'm willing to accept the possibility that the online training is so well done that a two day evaluation will be enough for quality control. It makes me uncomfortable given that it seems like such a brief period for evaluating somebody (not just teaching ability, but their character too, a point sensibly made by Helio when he spoke about "someone with the morals I expect to become an instructor"), but as ever, we'll have to wait and see.

Fair enough, but having trained at eight different schools so far, I've had many excellent instructors with a refined approach to organising a curriculum and teaching.

That isn't unusual: for example, Gracie Barra has a clear approach in place with their Gracie Barra Fundamentals syllabus, and I believe Alliance is producing something similar. Draculino is known for his structured curriculums: indeed, this is something Romulo Barral pointed out when I asked him:



This is something I've also seen repeatedly in my own training. Gracie Barra Birmingham will run through a small group of techniques for a month before progressing to the next group. My current school, Roger Gracie Buckinghamshire, will have a specific position each week (which I think is also the case for another school I regularly attend, Gracie Barra Bristol).

All three of those also split the classes into Beginner and Advanced. Then there is Felipe Souza at BJJ School, where all the instructors of the various affiliates meet to plan the next set of lessons.

Yes: the aforementioned Gracie Barra and Alliance, along with places like USA Jiu Jitsu. However, I'm not sure if they have a clearly listed structure like the Gracie Academy, which would be interesting to see.

I don't intend to enroll. As I've said before, I love Gracie Combatives, but pretty much despise the Graices. I don't really care about being a official GJJ Blue Belt or a Level I Certifired Instructor/Training Center.

If the classes were on DVD I might buy them to add to my collection to see if I can pick up any teaching techniques. As far as I can tell the Gracie's know how to structure a class and curriculm. I don't see if someone followed the formula how the could go wrong.

[Punisher]

Well, I've said this a million times and I'm sure it has been said a million times. This is basically what other martial arts started doing when more affective forms of combat sports started gaining prominence. It's the whole "we train for self defense/the street". It's essentially just a way to pray on people's fear of getting into a self defense confrontation. By doing so, you are able to heard people in your direction by making them feel like you are providing them something additional that will protect their lives that the "sport fighters/styles/schools" can't.

The Gracie Combatives program does contain stuff that most sport BJJ schools don't, how to defend punches.

[datdamnmachine]

That's true, and it is good to have some kind of standardisation in place, which could counteract a general problem in martial arts and self defence: anyone can throw on a black belt, make up a martial art, fabricate years of street fighting and tournament victories, then open up a school. That doesn't look like it will be possible with this Instructor Certification Program.

The main concern is whether or not is it really possible to take somebody with no prior teaching experience, run them through an online program, and produce a capable instructor after meeting them in person for two days. I see according to the last lesson mentioned on the website that you are supposed to submit five videos: I'm hoping at least one of those will be of you teaching a class. It will be good to hear from someone who has gone through the program: are you intending to enrol, Punisher?

I'm a lot more comfortable with the process I've seen in the past (e.g., at the Roger Gracie Academy), which is that you start by helping out teach classes (often beginning with kids), then move on to assistant instructor, eventually taking beginner classes, then as you progress up the belts, you teach more advanced students. That process normally takes many years, with a black belt present to see what you're doing before they give their blessing for you to teach on your own. However, that does lack standardisation, and will most likely vary from school to school.

The Gracie ICP has only just been launched, so I'm willing to accept the possibility that the online training is so well done that a two day evaluation will be enough for quality control. It makes me uncomfortable given that it seems like such a brief period for evaluating somebody (not just teaching ability, but their character too, a point sensibly made by Helio when he spoke about "someone with the morals I expect to become an instructor"), but as ever, we'll have to wait and see.

Fair enough, but having trained at eight different schools so far, I've had many excellent instructors with a refined approach to organising a curriculum and teaching.

That isn't unusual: for example, Gracie Barra has a clear approach in place with their Gracie Barra Fundamentals syllabus, and I believe Alliance is producing something similar. Draculino is known for his structured curriculums: indeed, this is something Romulo Barral pointed out when I asked him:



This is something I've also seen repeatedly in my own training. Gracie Barra Birmingham will run through a small group of techniques for a month before progressing to the next group. My current school, Roger Gracie Buckinghamshire, will have a specific position each week (which I think is also the case for another school I regularly attend, Gracie Barra Bristol).

All three of those also split the classes into Beginner and Advanced. Then there is Felipe Souza at BJJ School, where all the instructors of the various affiliates meet to plan the next set of lessons.

Yes: the aforementioned Gracie Barra and Alliance, along with places like USA Jiu Jitsu. However, I'm not sure if they have a clearly listed structure like the Gracie Academy, which would be interesting to see.

Personally, although I think a curriculum can be a good thing, one thing that makes BJJ, well, BJJ is how individual it is. Everyone will develop differently based on their own preferences, experiences, tastes, body type, attributes, etc. With that being said, having a "hard" technique based curriculum can be a negative as it rewards those who can essentially "know the test" as opposed to knowing the material. It can sometimes punish those who "know the material" but may not know the test.

As long as the curriculum isn't some hard, set in stone, non-flexible standard, that allow students to grow and develop in their own way then it's a good thing. If it's "know this technique for your blue belt, know that technique for your purple belt" then there will be problems. Hell, even I didn't start getting serviceable at the scissors sweep until I was a around Purple belt. It's not so much what you know, but knowing how to apply what you know that counts, in my opinion.

I just read this:

So in the Gracie family, they can't even make up their mind if they're all teaching "the real jiu-jitsu"????? If they can't even agree on whose BJJ/GJJ/whatever is "the real", then who the hell cares? Train with who you want, go out & get skills that you value.
If they wanted to keep a monopoly on "the real", they should have just kept winning fights & shouldn't have bothered trying to get rich off of opening academies & grossly overcharging.

Well, I've said this a million times and I'm sure it has been said a million times. This is basically what other martial arts started doing when more affective forms of combat sports started gaining prominence. It's the whole "we train for self defense/the street". It's essentially just a way to pray on people's fear of getting into a self defense confrontation. By doing so, you are able to heard people in your direction by making them feel like you are providing them something additional that will protect their lives that the "sport fighters/styles/schools" can't.

[Jim_Jude]

Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?

I fairly sure that both France & Germany are much more strict on martial arts instructors, not like the US where all you need to open a school is a business license....

[Jim_Jude]

You mean Rener and Ryron, presumably, Rorion's sons? Royler and Renzo are from Rorion's generation. This is Ryron and Rener, from the DVD set cover: not obvious from the picture, but they're both much bigger than Renzo and Royler:





While this is Renzo and Royler, from the cover of their book, Theory & Technique:



Renzo in particular does not think much of Gracie Combatives.

I just read this:

Renzo Gracie: ...now that you mention, I had a very strange experience this past week. One of my students, he actually went to California, and he ask me where he should train. I say, “the Gracie Academy,” because that was the closest place to where he was going. I sent him to Rorion’s Academy, the one in Torrance. He goes in, and they told him that he shouldn’t train there, because that place was the “real jiu jitsu place.” It was like they were saying he doesn’t know jiu jitsu, and is learning from a source that doesn’t know how to teach.
You know what happened, my friend: I see a lot of people now, especially my family, saying that. “Oh, I know the real jiu jitsu, you don’t know the real jiu jitsu.” We all learn from the same place, we all develop the same art together, growing up. But for some reason, once they jump in a plane and they move to America they try to sell a product, like the American people are a bunch of fools. Right now, I became American, and I know there are no fools here...

So in the Gracie family, they can't even make up their mind if they're all teaching "the real jiu-jitsu"????? If they can't even agree on whose BJJ/GJJ/whatever is "the real", then who the hell cares? Train with who you want, go out & get skills that you value.
If they wanted to keep a monopoly on "the real", they should have just kept winning fights & shouldn't have bothered trying to get rich off of opening academies & grossly overcharging.

[chingythingy]

I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ. I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.

Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?

Yes. Roy Harris instructor training programs do this.

[judoka_uk]

Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?

[slideyfoot]

I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ.

That's true, and it is good to have some kind of standardisation in place, which could counteract a general problem in martial arts and self defence: anyone can throw on a black belt, make up a martial art, fabricate years of street fighting and tournament victories, then open up a school. That doesn't look like it will be possible with this Instructor Certification Program.

The main concern is whether or not is it really possible to take somebody with no prior teaching experience, run them through an online program, and produce a capable instructor after meeting them in person for two days. I see according to the last lesson mentioned on the website that you are supposed to submit five videos: I'm hoping at least one of those will be of you teaching a class. It will be good to hear from someone who has gone through the program: are you intending to enrol, Punisher?

Lesson 52: Video Evaluation Guidelines
Ryron and Rener provide detailed specifications for each of the five videos that you will need to upload in order to be considered for advancement to the live evaluation at the Gracie Academy Headquarters in Torrance, CA.

I'm a lot more comfortable with the process I've seen in the past (e.g., at the Roger Gracie Academy), which is that you start by helping out teach classes (often beginning with kids), then move on to assistant instructor, eventually taking beginner classes, then as you progress up the belts, you teach more advanced students. That process normally takes many years, with a black belt present to see what you're doing before they give their blessing for you to teach on your own. However, that does lack standardisation, and will most likely vary from school to school.

The Gracie ICP has only just been launched, so I'm willing to accept the possibility that the online training is so well done that a two day evaluation will be enough for quality control. It makes me uncomfortable given that it seems like such a brief period for evaluating somebody (not just teaching ability, but their character too, a point sensibly made by Helio when he spoke about "someone with the morals I expect to become an instructor"), but as ever, we'll have to wait and see.

I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.

Fair enough, but having trained at eight different schools so far, I've had many excellent instructors with a refined approach to organising a curriculum and teaching.

That isn't unusual: for example, Gracie Barra has a clear approach in place with their Gracie Barra Fundamentals syllabus, and I believe Alliance is producing something similar. Draculino is known for his structured curriculums: indeed, this is something Romulo Barral pointed out when I asked him:

This is something I've also seen repeatedly in my own training. Gracie Barra Birmingham will run through a small group of techniques for a month before progressing to the next group. My current school, Roger Gracie Buckinghamshire, will have a specific position each week (which I think is also the case for another school I regularly attend, Gracie Barra Bristol).

All three of those also split the classes into Beginner and Advanced. Then there is Felipe Souza at BJJ School, where all the instructors of the various affiliates meet to plan the next set of lessons.

Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?

Yes: the aforementioned Gracie Barra and Alliance, along with places like USA Jiu Jitsu. However, I'm not sure if they have a clearly listed structure like the Gracie Academy, which would be interesting to see.

[Team Python]

I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ. I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.

Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?

I have never come across any so far other than the Gracie Academy......I give them credit for that for sure......once I get my finances squared away I plan to do some privates at the academy....I had set up a private with Ralek but I had to cancel it.....I plan to schedule another date so I can have him go over my self defense techniques and make sure I have everything squared away.

[Punisher]

I for on am glad the Gracies have some sort of formal instructor training program. Just because you can DO BJJ, or any other martial art, it doesn't mean you can TEACH BJJ. I've had plenty of shitty instructors, who didn't know the first thing about how to organize a curriculum, structure a class, or teach a technique.

Can anyone point out it me any other place that offers specific courses in how to TEACH martial arts, separate and distinct for how to perform them?