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broadsword or katana???

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    #16
    If a guy with a Chinese broadsword and guy with a Japanese katana fought, a Filipino warrior would jump out of the bushes and chop both their heads off with a kampilan.
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."

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      #17
      Neo would just take their weapons away with telekinesis, DUH!

      <Me> John, what do you know about Zen Buddhism? <John> *smacks me*
      <John> I'd have to smack you sometime...
      Katana, on 540 kicks: "Hang from a ceiling fan with both hands. Flail your feet out and ask people to walk into you as you hit their face."

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        #18
        ohohOk? I have never been called a "d&d fag" before I'm trying it on for size but it does not seem to fit. But you know O.J.'s glove did not fit either!

        Well anyway I should have read more carfully "same skill level" well then it would be a tie! So this is where they decide to be friends and then gay lovers and end up killing each other becuase they cannot agree on a floral pattern for thier drapes in thier new up state appartment. No but really, The Broad sword would have it's functional advantages as will the katana! So as we can all agree they are both used in a differernt way! so logic will leave but only one answer! Apples are not as good as oranges! for orange juice but apples are far better for apple juice and apple wine!Fuck it just pass me an Ale! Now I that have earned the title of a "d&D fag" I will pull up my tights and be off!

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          #19
          "a samurai sword is probably the best sword ever "

          I don't think so, and I do practice a M.A. that has Kenjutsu in it.
          Unlike most peoples perception swords were secondary weapons at best for most armies. The first weapons were archeries and a variety of halberds, spears etc.

          While the Katana are world wide known for the quality of their making, most people forget these weren't the average katana one would get his hands on.
          Further, I was told that Katana's did in fact dull and break during battles. You can check it out reading Japanese stories of ancient fights etc.
          The myth around the katana and the samurai was exaggerated by the movie industry, just like they did to M.A. practice. There is no magic in M.A. and non in sword making, It's all hard work, the ore and the tools you have.

          People also forget the requirements from the various swords were different in different cultures and eras. I doubt there are a few Katana that could have penetrated the plate shields of a Knight, That's the reason the European broad swords were not as sharp, and were much heavier - they had to pass the strikes through the armor to the person beneath it, then, as he fell down, find a weak point and stab it. The Japanese amour was weaker, and so, a sword could cut through it -here comes the Katana to do the Job.

          I am sure the Chinese broadsword was just as adjusted to it's wielder needs as the Katana was.

          Amir

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            #20
            Claymores are meant to be used to stab with. They're too damn big for slicing, unless I'm grossly mistaken.
            You're grossly mistaken.

            Matt

            Homer: What do you have to wash this awful taste down with?

            Vendor: Crab juice and Mountain Dew.

            Homer: Yeeuch! Bleh! Ugh! ... I'll have a crab juice!

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              #21
              Yeah, but a broadsword is 1d8 for damage and a katana is 1d10.

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                #22
                http://www.karatedepot.com/wp-sw-04.html

                http://www.karatedepot.com/wp-sw-77.html

                examples for y'all



                Edited by - SEAEFTEA on September 09 2003 20:15:01
                Is it just me or does that katana look a lot shorter than the broadsword? Based on that, I'd give it to the broadsword because of the longer reach.

                But I have no experience with either.

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                  #23
                  Amir, you are so correct about the use of other weapons in combat. The Axe is excellent against armor and I've seen footage of sword and shield v.s. axe and shield and the swordsmen was at disadvantage. The English Huskarls used 65 pound axes that were 6 foot tall swinging them in a circular motion making one hit even with armor fatal.

                  Halbierds had spearheads, axeheads, and spikes on them and were good at taking down calvary and armored men. The bayonet on rifles is the evolved halbierd. Early firearm users in battle relied on pikemen to keep calvery away and charging infantry. The bayonet made halbierds obsolete.

                  Bows were very important, and someone said that Genghis Khan used a Chinese broadsword, though the reason for Mongol supremecy was calvary archers that would charge and retreat while shooting arrows until the enemy was spread out and demoralized until they would fight hand to hand. Samuri during certain time periods used calvary archery over hand to hand combat. And English longbowmen prevailed over French heavy calvary in the hundred years war.

                  Amir you said there is no magic in sword making though the technology in those days and places were important. True katana's were folded at least a hundred times and only Arab scimitars equaled the quality of forging in the old days.

                  The reason for a Katana breaking is that higher graded steels have more impurities taking out of the metal. The less impurities mean that they get sharper and hold edges longer but can break. My buck knife is good quality steel. It can cut pennys in half and is always sharp but if I throw it at a tree it will break. My old timer knife never stays sharp but I can throw it into a tree. These knifes both have 6" blades.

                  "the only thing promised in life is death, everything else is achievement"

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                    #24
                    Wow, someone has been reading the their manual to Age of Empires 2.
                    "The longer I live the more I see that I am never wrong about anything, and that all the pains that I have so humbly taken to verify my notions have only wasted my time."

                    -- George Bernard Shaw

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                      #25
                      You are all a bunch of D&D fags.

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                        #26
                        Okay there blue, lets just stick to the factual faults with your sword info.

                        "True katana" are more myth than anything else. These masterfully forged, unbreakable blades, no more existed than Excalibre. Yes, the katana was a fine weapon, for its niche. A place where light armor and low quality ore existed, and social preasure shaped weapons and warfare more than practicality. Katanas were not folded hunderds of times, they had hundreds of layers in some cases though. A blade folded eight times has 256 layers if I did my math right. Each time the steal is folded it doubles the number of layers. The folding was done to impart a higher carbon content to the metal and with higher carbon, end with a harder blade. Hard blades hold a finer edge, but break more readily. Fold forging with multiple types of steal was something European bladesmiths had discovered a good thousand years before the Japanese came up with the katana. Viking blades were patern weilded, meaning hammer forged with layered multiple steals by the Fifth Century, there were earlier examples as well. The only reason you see good quality katanas in abundance compaired to European or other blades is due to culture. The Japanese attached so much social and cultural importance to the sword, after the unification, that blades were cared for very well and were wall hanging heirlomes, not battle weapons. In Europe, or China I'd wager, if the sword wasn't used for fighting or training, it was likely to rust from neglect. Europe moved on to more modern and practical means of mass warfare, and the Chinese just had so damned many funky weapons laying around, the sword was just not that important. Polearms were the king of mass battle.

                        Combine that with a good, flexable blade, with a more narrow profile along the spine, and you have a weapon that will more easily deal with armors and penetrating blows.

                        Now who would win? Who gets lucky first? That's where you'll get your answer. Mostly likely the "winner" will be the guy who dies second, as I see both dropping over right after the fight ended.

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                          #27
                          Kail carbon is actually lost in the folding process. There is a way to impart carbon to steel when forging, its called carburization, and it is a very difficult and costly method of doing it (fuel usage is quite high). Anyways, the process of folding was the result of the way steel was made at the time. Essentially they were making bloom steel. Bloom steel is made by essentially throwing iron chunks, fuel, and whatever else junk they could find into a big kiln firing it till everything melted, and then the resulting blob on the bottom is the bloom. This is hardly an accurate,nor cheap way to make steel (this is before the European crucible steel revolution of the 18th century), and the resultant blob would have wildly varying carbon levels. A good smith would then need to break apart the bloom, and identify which parts had the highest carbon, and which had the least, thereby deciding which parts would go for which portions of the blade (edge steel versus side steel versus back steel in typical san mei construction). Folding was done to homogenize the steel, and distribute the carbon equally through the billet, since like I said the carbon distribution throughout the bloom was rather random. Essentially, they were trying to make the homogenous steel we take for granted today thanks to crucible manufacturing methods. Anyways, like I said before, with every fold there is carbon loss, also, since every fold represents a weld, it also introduces potential flaws/stress points. When looking at the hada of a japanese katana, you are essentially seeing the slag incursions created by the numerous welds. So realistically folding is potentially detrimental to the sword. However, given the resource constraints, and the material restraints of the time, it was one of the only practical ways to maximize steel distribution. Pattern welding is quite common via many cultures, from Vikings to Indonesian keris. Check out http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/patterns.html
                          for more info on pattern welding
                          also everything you could possibly want to know about Nihonto can be found on Dr Rich Stein's site
                          http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

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                            #28
                            I have to agree with Kail. The 'true katana' is pretty much just a myth. Any weapon actively used in battle will be damaged and eventually rendered useless, regardless of the make. Granted, a better forged blade will last longer, but it will still need to be replaced.

                            The antique katanas seen nowadays are pretty much heirlooms from the Tokugawa shogunate, a relatively peaceful time when the average bushi (warrior) probably never saw actual field combat. Hence the near mint condition of most of the museum blades.

                            Additionally, not all katanas were the masterworks that people today think them to be. A soldier pretty much got the best weapon he could afford and scrounged/bought another one when it broke. Consider a car analogy: the average soldier could probably afford a Yugo, while the princes and powerful lords were wielding the Lambourghinis (sp?) and Ferraris. Japanese katanas were on average probably better weapons (the Chinese bought 'em by the stack), but they were by no means all masterworks.

                            Someone asked about a duel between a rapiersman and a samurai. I've read a few accounts of Portugeuse rapier fighters fighting single combats against samurai. The end result: most of the time, both died. Simply put, their fighting styles were completely different and neither could/would adapt to the other. The samurai would charge, aiming a big slash. The rapiersman would lunge, impaling the samurai, who then decapitated/mortally wounded the Portugeuse. The rapiersman generally died right there, while the samurai expired within a day or two.

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                              #29
                              Most people already covered what I would say to blue-dragon, but here's just a few quick additions...

                              The English Huskarls used 65 pound axes...
                              Bullshit! Nobody used 65lb axes. What, were they made out of lead? LOL. Listen, BD. You can't come on a board like this and just makes crap like that up. You'll get called on it.

                              My buck knife is good quality steel. It can cut pennys in half and is always sharp but if I throw it at a tree it will break. My old timer knife never stays sharp but I can throw it into a tree.
                              That's gonna be due to hardness (although blade shape can affect it as well). A softer blade does not hold an edge as well, but can take more of a beating. A harder blade can take a better adge, but is more brittle and prone to breaking.

                              BD, go here... www.swordforum.com and LEARN.

                              Matt

                              Homer: What do you have to wash this awful taste down with?

                              Vendor: Crab juice and Mountain Dew.

                              Homer: Yeeuch! Bleh! Ugh! ... I'll have a crab juice!

                              Comment


                                #30
                                ER... Where did the idea of a katana never breaking come from?

                                I have several handforged katana as well as several 'real' (read NOT WUSHU) chinese dao and jians. The katana by far is a better constucted blade. Also Samurai weren't inclined to whip out their sword at a moments notice. A good sword was expensive (like they are now) and if one broke he had to wait or a new one (usually the broken sword would be refited as a tanto or wakazashi) Polearms (naginata, yari, bisento) were ther primarly weapons on the battlefeild the sword was secondary. Gunto (lit Military Sword) were the mass produced katana that were seldom or never signed by the swordsmith.

                                ______
                                Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!!
                                THE TRUE FIST OF THE NORTHSTAR!!
                                ______
                                Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

                                RIP SOLDIER

                                Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
                                -Gene, GODHAND

                                You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
                                The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
                                -Daniel Tosh

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