Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

OAMA/Renzo club uses ninjitsu for marketing?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    OAMA/Renzo club uses ninjitsu for marketing?

    This thread is directed to the OAMA students/instructors in Ottawa and the greater Bullshido community.

    From my understanding, OAMA has a good reputation as a Renzo Gracie school and muay thai club. Based on the school's affiliations, I was surprised to see a few items:

    1. In the news section (Brazilian jiu-jitsu section), a guest instructor named Kyoshi Allie Alberigo is credited with making "... a big impact on our school." From what I understand, Mr. Albergio runs Ninjitsu McDojos in the US. Why would OAMA want to be associated with Mr. Albergio? http://www.oama.ca/news.php?site=bjj Mr. Cooligan is now working extensively with Hollywood BJJ - is this a sign that Renzo schools are now using ninjer/mcdojo marketing tactics?

    2. OAMA's senior instructors seem to do extensive travel - but at what expense to the students? My impression is that the news board is used to generate "hype": when the senior instructors are actually at the club teaching... why is this? I can be appreciate the value of having experienced instructors, but are the students funding all this travel through participation in contests (e.g. the "patched out" Gi contest) ?

    Other items:

    3. I have heard that students must wear a muay thai "uniform" - an official OAMA t-shirt and shorts to participate. Is this normal in other muay thai gyms?

    4. In Mr. Cooligan's interview with "on the mat" http://www.onthemat.com , he states that he does not see value in having his fighters appear on local (Ottawa) MMA cards. This to me sounds like avoiding competition rather than embracing it, but I would be interested to hear what more experienced MMA people have to say.

    If OAMA instructors/students are on this site, I would like to hear the rationale for your current marketing decisions and/or participation in the events described above. Do you think that some decisions, while they may generate revenue, might be bad for the overall image of your gym? For BJJ? For MMA in general?

    #2
    You need to change your comment about this applying to all Renzo Gracie schools pretty quick. There are a lot of Renzo Gracie affiliates that don't have anything to do with OAMA. (like mine)

    is this a sign that Renzo schools are now using ninjer/mcdojo marketing tactics?

    Comment


      #3
      I'll contribute what I can to this thread.

      Originally posted by karate26
      1. In the news section (Brazilian jiu-jitsu section), a guest instructor named Kyoshi Allie Alberigo is credited with making "... a big impact on our school." From what I understand, Mr. Albergio runs Ninjitsu McDojos in the US. Why would OAMA want to be associated with Mr. Albergio? http://www.oama.ca/news.php?site=bjj Mr. Cooligan is now working extensively with Hollywood BJJ - is this a sign that Renzo schools are now using ninjer/mcdojo marketing tactics?
      Alberigo was associated for a long time with Shoto Tanemura's Genbukan but ceased that association a few years ago due to undisclosed circumstances. He has erroniously continued to claim association with the Genbukan on his "Long Island Ninjutsu" websites however.

      For several years Alberigo has produced marketing materials for martial arts school, both in terms of in class practices and bsiness strategies. The majority of this material does fall into the "McDojo" category though it should be said that Alberigo never engaged in watering down the core Genbukan practices among his adult students. He has however conducted questionable classes, such as classes for 3 to 5 year olds.

      For information on his Martial Arts School marketing material see

      http://www.takingittothenextlevel.com

      For information on his current teaching locations see

      http://www.lininja.com/

      Notice that he still claims to be teaching Genbukan material despite the fact that he is no longer involved with that organization.

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by karate26
        This thread is directed to the OAMA students/instructors in Ottawa and the greater Bullshido community.

        From my understanding, OAMA has a good reputation as a Renzo Gracie school and muay thai club. Based on the school's affiliations, I was surprised to see a few items:

        1. In the news section (Brazilian jiu-jitsu section), a guest instructor named Kyoshi Allie Alberigo is credited with making "... a big impact on our school." From what I understand, Mr. Albergio runs Ninjitsu McDojos in the US. Why would OAMA want to be associated with Mr. Albergio? http://www.oama.ca/news.php?site=bjj Mr. Cooligan is now working extensively with Hollywood BJJ - is this a sign that Renzo schools are now using ninjer/mcdojo marketing tactics?
        Lets analyze the post you are referring to.
        Thank you Kyoshi Allie Alberigo for coming to Ottawa this weekend despite your busy schedule, your help is much appreciated. Allie is a good friend of Pat and has helped our school in many ways. He has made a big impact on our school.
        So maybe bringing him out turned out to be a great money maker. Maybe they really are good friends and help each other out. Did you ask?

        Apparently he does seminars to help businesses make money. Did you call and ask what type of seminar he offered?

        2. OAMA's senior instructors seem to do extensive travel - but at what expense to the students? My impression is that the news board is used to generate "hype": when the senior instructors are actually at the club teaching... why is this? I can be appreciate the value of having experienced instructors, but are the students funding all this travel through participation in contests (e.g. the "patched out" Gi contest)
        Okay are they supposed to be sad? They aren't supposed to hype their fight team? I'm sorry it reads a little over the top but bullshido/Mcdojo? Not IMO.

        Again did you call and ask if your participation is required in said raffles and contests?

        3. I have heard that students must wear a muay thai "uniform" - an official OAMA t-shirt and shorts to participate. Is this normal in other muay thai gyms?
        Does it really matter. Many gyms do things to be unique. Again did you call or ask these questions?
        4. In Mr. Cooligan's interview with "on the mat" http://www.onthemat.com , he states that he does not see value in having his fighters appear on local (Ottawa) MMA cards. This to me sounds like avoiding competition rather than embracing it, but I would be interested to hear what more experienced MMA people have to say.
        He has a fight team enough said.
        http://www.onthemat.com/articles/Hol...6_19_2007.html

        If OAMA instructors/students are on this site, I would like to hear the rationale for your current marketing decisions and/or participation in the events described above. Do you think that some decisions, while they may generate revenue, might be bad for the overall image of your gym? For BJJ? For MMA in general?
        So, do you train at a competing gym? Seriously. He hypes his school, he rolls, he has a fight team, they compete, they have 400 students, they have a 6500(?) sqf facility with AC.

        What are you calling into question?

        The reason I ask is you really misrepresented everything from your links.
        Last edited by It is Fake; 6/26/2007 7:23pm, .

        Comment


          #5
          Oh sorry I forgot a very important link.

          http://www.takingittothenextlevel.com/

          Hey, Mcdojos know how to make money. As long as the training doesn't suffer whats wrong with a little extra marketing?

          Comment


            #6
            Pat was one of the first people to take the trip down and take the old 40 hour introduction that Renzo provided. This was in the mid-90s when no-one was training BJJ. Pat was a Black Belt in Can-Ryu Jiu-Jitsu and parked his ego and went to train. Cant say that for everyone.

            Some people dont like the marketing strategies of OAMA, and some people dont like that they dont push everyone to compete. But not everyone is in MA/BJJ to compete. Many just want a good workout- some good skills and the occasional competition.

            Clean Mats and AC are paid for by having lots of students.

            To the OP: Have you ever trained at OAMA?
            "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't fuck with me!"

            Comment


              #7

              Comment


                #8
                lol @ everything in the original post

                well, Nickel pretty much said what I was going to and probably a lot politer but I'll keep my responses short

                1. Why would OAMA want to be associated with Mr. Albergio? Plain and simple, he has tons of experiencing running a school. He wasn't brought up to teach adults ninjitsu but provided a lot of help on how to achieve our goals and have strong business continuity A.K.A staying in business so us students have a school to go to. There's no smoke and mirrors with what he conveyed, mostly how to help students achieve their own personal goals and stick with club in a win-win situation.

                2. OAMA's senior instructors seem to do extensive travel - but at what expense to the students? The expense placed on us is that we have senior instructors who come back with more experience and skills to pass on to us. The HORRORS!!!!!111 I personally would love to tell my wife and child that I'm going to be a full-time BJJ player and travel the globe, but it's much easier for the guys to bring back the skills to me. And if you are trying to imply that they are not actually on these trips, you may want to visit the gallery on the site and you can see some of the pics of their travels. As far as the funding, the contests are voluntary and the money goes to the competition team to cover only some of travel. As far as the "patched-out gi", he won a trip to NY to train at Renzo's free of charge. God damn OAMA is ruthless!!!

                3. I have heard that students must wear a muay thai "uniform" - an official OAMA t-shirt and shorts to participate. Is this normal in other muay thai gyms?
                You know, I have no idea if other gyms run this way. However, I personally think it conveys the team atmosphere that we have at OAMA. It's the same for our No-Gi class and every BJJ Gi must have a Renzo patch. Don't like it? You don't have to train here. Pretty simple.

                4. In Mr. Cooligan's interview with "on the mat" he states that he does not see value in having his fighters appear on local (Ottawa) MMA cards. Wow, you really twisted that up didn't you? Here is what is actually in the interview: That really sounds like ducking competition now doesn't it? He also explained in that very paragraph that you don't have to take every fight offered, it has to be worthwhile. I don't see how that is construed as unreasonable management.

                SO in closing, congrats on your troll thread, it got people to bite and explain something that you aren't even going to accept. But as Pat has done in the past, he just ignores the internet BS and focuses on making OAMA the best club in the country. Sorry that rubs you the wrong way.

                Raymond Rice (part-time instructor when the guys are fighting and competing world-wide)

                "Organized like a team, Fighting like a Family"

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by UVray
                  1. Why would OAMA want to be associated with Mr. Albergio? Plain and simple, he has tons of experiencing running a school. He wasn't brought up to teach adults ninjitsu but provided a lot of help on how to achieve our goals and have strong business continuity A.K.A staying in business so us students have a school to go to. There's no smoke and mirrors with what he conveyed, mostly how to help students achieve their own personal goals and stick with club in a win-win situation.
                  UVray,

                  Out of curiousity, did Mr. Albergio claim at any time while at OAMA that he was representative of or affiliated with the Genbukan?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Fitz

                    Allie said he unfortunataly has left his japanese teacher and he is now doing his own thing we really know nothing about what he teaches so we do not even know what that means. hope that helps

                    Comment


                      #11
                      An interesting reply...I'll post a response, as I think a few things are transparent:

                      Originally posted by nickel
                      I am an Instructor at OAMA and have known Mr. Cooligan for several years. Let me try to clarify things for you a little. And since it is obvious you are nothing more than a hater this will be my only post.]
                      You call me "hater"...why is that? Because I question the way you do business? Because I ask you to explain your methods, considering your status as a Renzo club in Ottawa's already mcdojo infested scene? Give me a break.

                      Lets be clear: I am not questioing Renzo's judgement - I am questioning your judgement.

                      I'm glad to hear your adult students are not being taught ninjitsu, but am sorry to hear your kids program presently needs this type of help. You should be looking at "play as the way" methods...not watering down your material with ninjitsu. If you want to attract kids, follow the Douvris mcdojo model: water down the material, pass out belts like swimming badges.

                      You admit you are taking bussiness lessons and practices from a person who does not care about teaching quality martial arts programs for kids. Does a class full of kids paying through the nose while learning a watered down program equate to a sucessful program to you? In your association with the ninjas, this seems to be case. As a Renzo club, please prove me wrong.

                      Originally posted by nickel
                      In terms of the news board being used to hype events well guess what it is!!!! Although it is always accurate if it says an Instructor is out of town they are!!! It would be odd to lie about it on the news when the students that read it would know it is not true lol that was a lame one buddy!!!]
                      You misunderstand my point: my question relates to the quality of instruction if the top people in the club are not there teach. I appreciate the value of learning from experts world-wide, but this must be hard on the students. It is great your guys go out and fight, but it seems they spend a large amount of time away from the club.

                      Originally posted by nickel
                      Yes there is a Muay Thai uniform!! And guess what we have a no Gi one for the BJJ as well. But I can see how uniformity and having people wear uniforms like every other martial art is a horrible thing.]
                      Why is it bad to have an MT uniform? The question, is why would you need one? It looks like an easy way to overcharge students... I have never heard of this practice in any other MT gym.

                      Originally posted by nickel
                      If you read the article Mr Cooligan NEVER states competing in local shows is of no value OAMA has done it in the past and I know for a fact they will do it again in the future.
                      o sum it all up I can say this. OAMA teaches high quality Renzo Gracie BJJ, they have some of the best seminars in the country and have the most active competition team in the province they have competed in four major tournaments this year winning over 50 medals at every experience up to purple belt. As as well as beginner through advanvced. Already in 2007 and one Gold at the pan-ams!!! Since you read our news I assume you know this. As of late 2006 we have the most active Muay Thai fight team in Ottawa!! Fighting at least once a month both pro and amateur. Our Muay Thai is taught by two active fighters that teach full time. At this time we do not fight a lot of MMA but we have several guys training that will debut in the next year.]
                      No argument here - this is all good.


                      Originally posted by nickel
                      I hope this clears up some stuff but I doubt it as you obviously are a hater. In terms of a bad name for BJJ MMA we reach over 400 students with quality martial arts instruction. So it sounds to me like we are helping BJJ Muay Thai and MMA more than most schools. ]
                      I should have been more clear: as a Renzo Gracie club with 400+ students, I find it odd you have an almost non-existent presence on the Ontario MMA scene. Your fighters seem to have the skills, but yet they go worldwide before conquering their own backyard (so to speak). I am saying, this is not going unnoticed...whether or not you care to acknowledge this.

                      In terms of pure grappling/BJJ, why would you not compete in Montreal or Toronto?


                      Originally posted by nickel
                      Reasons why people like you hate OAMA

                      We are a big successful school
                      We have great seminars that are for our students only
                      We go to the tournaments we want to go to]
                      Yes, you are a large club
                      You have your own policies for seminars: an odd choice, poor for the MA community, but it is your choice.
                      Yes, you attend lots of tournaments... just none that will build your reputation in MMA. Eastern Ontario is waiting to see the Renzo club


                      No not a reason to hate you. It is a heads up to potential students that they will likely be overcharged, one way or another.

                      I posted in the fist place because as a Renzo BJJ club, I think you have a responsibility in protecting one of the only belt systems in the world which is still respected. Understand that as a large club with a Renzo label, you are under the mircoscope. If you choose to bring in Ninjas, you should expect to be brought to task. I personaly don't like your business practices, but no, I don't hate you

                      No, I am not claiming fraud ("Bullshido"). I find it disappointing that you are using "McDojo" tactics. Renzo built his club based on the Gracie name and his own ability. As far as I know, Renzo never needed to bring in the Ninjas.

                      Once again, I am not questioning Renzo...only the way you do business. The whole point is that as a Renzo BJJ club, I find some of your marekting bizzare and that self-interest is effecting the reputation of your club.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Hey it cant be that bad. A quick google search found at least a couple of guys from OAMA have fought in MMA:

                        Mark Holst: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14862

                        Nick Castiglia: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14860

                        They fought in one of the Apex tournaments in Gatineau. If I found these two that easily, there must be more right? Can someone from OAMA fill us in here?
                        "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't fuck with me!"

                        Comment


                          #13
                          3. I have heard that students must wear a muay thai "uniform" - an official OAMA t-shirt and shorts to participate. Is this normal in other muay thai gyms?
                          Yes...

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Askari
                            Hey it cant be that bad. A quick google search found at least a couple of guys from OAMA have fought in MMA:

                            Mark Holst: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14862

                            Nick Castiglia: http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/f...ighterID=14860

                            They fought in one of the Apex tournaments in Gatineau. If I found these two that easily, there must be more right? Can someone from OAMA fill us in here?
                            I was at both shows, they represented quite well, I thought(admittedly, I'm no expert). I train at Ronin, but I have friends at OAMA who love it and who do compete. I don't even know why they SHOULD 'have' to rep MMA though, as long as they rep their BJJ and their MT, as that's what I see on the main page.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Last edited by nickel; 7/11/2007 4:26pm, .

                              Comment

                              Collapse

                              Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                              Working...
                              X