Dont buy the Core Combat training DVDs from Damian Ross or Carl Cestari

[Sam Browning]

Carl and Damien are no longer associated. Damien , however does have the rights to the videos and DVDs that Carl produced.

Carl and Damien had a non amicable parting of the ways, Carl's students say it was over the Lt X business.

[Jim_Jude]

Carl and Damien are no longer associated. Damien , however does have the rights to the videos and DVDs that Carl produced.

Yes, that is what I understood. I lack the details as to why, or course.

[zadar95]

Wolfes Defendo CQB is not related to Underwood, we have nothing to with Underwood!! Harold Stairn, a highly decorated WWII Special Operations Veteran with the British Army, was one of the few oiginal Certified Unarmed Combat Instructors that continued to teach following WWII. Stairn, a Master of Judo and Ju Jutsu, a Boxer, a Wrestler and Master Fencer, reserved instruction in "DEFENDO" for a select few military personel. One of which was a young soldier named Bill Wolfe who was a Judo and Ju Jutsu student of Stairn's. Stairn, recognizing Wolfe's natural ability and tough as nails character, proceeded to pass on the skills that had allowed him to complete his missions in the worst of circumstances. To this day, much of Harold Stairn's past remains a secret, as he was a man of few words.

The only known photograph of Harold Stairn

Following his training with Stairn, Bill Wolfe continued his training during his military service and received Offical Certification as a Senior Unarmed Combat Instructor in the Canadian Army. Wolfe's Unarmed Combat Instructors during this period, were also WWII Special Forces Veterans who passed on training that evolved from Camp X.

This is from the www.defendo.com

[bearich]

To pack 3 DvDs with just strikes as your techniques you may as well join a McDojo because as a serious student and instructor I was quite dissapointed with the product as well as the claims of which none were fullfilled

Now you mention claims that went unfulfilled; what kind of claims are we talking about here? This is where the meat of arguement might have some substance.

The only reason I slam the DvDs is they dont live up to the hype not even close!! As far as Damian Ross goes where does he get off calling himself the WORLDS MOST RESPECTED CLOSE QUARTER COMBAT instructor, give me break, thats what upsets me the dishonesty about it. If I seem like a hater Im not, there is plenty of people I like out there this wasnt one of them!!!

Now, I'm trying to remain fairly impartial, but I must say you're not giving us a lot to work with aside from coming off like you have something against the people you are calling out.

You have openly stated that you are slamming the DVDs because they did not live up to what you thought they would/should be and have made no other claims of Bullshido against this Damian Ross fellow.

What claims are being made with this DVD? And which of these claims went unfulfilled?

The "World's Most Respected Close Quarter Combat Instructor" title is about the closest thing to a fraudulent claim presented, but even then, if it's expressed as someone's opinion and not presented as factual then it's just that, an opinion. However, I have yet to see where this claim is made. I certainly don't see it on under his website biography:
http://www.zenshin.info/whowe.html.

Could you please provide a link where this World's Most Respected CQC Instructor title is directed at and claimed by Ross?

[Cdnronin]

Wolfes Defendo CQB is not related to Underwood, we have nothing to with Underwood!! Harold Stairn, a highly decorated WWII Special Operations Veteran with the British Army, was one of the few oiginal Certified Unarmed Combat Instructors that continued to teach following WWII. Stairn, a Master of Judo and Ju Jutsu, a Boxer, a Wrestler and Master Fencer, reserved instruction in "DEFENDO" for a select few military personel. One of which was a young soldier named Bill Wolfe who was a Judo and Ju Jutsu student of Stairn's. Stairn, recognizing Wolfe's natural ability and tough as nails character, proceeded to pass on the skills that had allowed him to complete his missions in the worst of circumstances. To this day, much of Harold Stairn's past remains a secret, as he was a man of few words.

The only known photograph of Harold Stairn

Following his training with Stairn, Bill Wolfe continued his training during his military service and received Offical Certification as a Senior Unarmed Combat Instructor in the Canadian Army. Wolfe's Unarmed Combat Instructors during this period, were also WWII Special Forces Veterans who passed on training that evolved from Camp X.

This is from the www.defendo.com

Let's be succint, this is crap. Here we are presented with a mystery instructor who no one has ever heard of, taking asidea young and promising student and teaching him the secret arts. Arts so deadly and effective that said student Bill Wolfe and his brother both went on to the time, dedication and expense to become high ranking Hapkido instructors, only to realise that the truly effective combination of Boxing, Hapkido and wrestling that they teach sounded better with a WWII Combatives connection.

Problems with this story? At NO point did Fairbairn refer to his system as Defendo. His 1926 book was called DEFENDU, re-published in 1931 as Scientific Self Defense. This was a police
focused martial system, with an emphasis on restraints, almost all of which were removed as Fairbairn began to teach commondoes and other military organizations along with the saboteurs and spies of the OSS. By the time Fairbairn was teaching at Camp X, the system was referred to as Close Quarter Combat, the Silent Killing Syllabus or Gutterfighting. Never Defendo. Defendo is a term coined by Underwood(or his daughter if you want to get fussy) in the late 1940's.

So, we have a suspicious old master teaches eager student secrets story, mixed with a name that has no historical connection to the claimed lineage, along with a mix of styles(boxing, hapkido and wrestling) that do not match ANY historical reference to Fairbairn or Camp X. Does Wolfe still claim boxing was the base for the training at Camp X? Funny that that doesn't match with any other information available from any other source. Hmm, perhaps other known instructors from Camp X who taught hand to hand? George Relowosky(sp?), who was at Camp X from 1941 to 1944(essentially beginning to end) was an Olympic wrestler. Think his self defense or hand to hand system would be based on boxing? Not according to his book, nor information available from other sources. So either every published book by instructors, memoirs by trainees, or thoroughly resaerched book about Camp X (David Stafford's book comes to mind, as well as the compilation How to be a spy, all the trainig syllabuses from Camp X) are involved in an elaborate hoax and coverup spanning at least 75 years, or Wolfe is lying. Hard to decide which way to go on this one, don't you think?

So, if you provide some actual, verifiable conncetion to Fairbairn for Wolfe, I'll be pleased to hear it. Something simple will do. Something that others can confirm. As an example. Fairbairn taught Sgt Kelly in Shanghai. Sgt Kelly taught Charlie Nelson, Charlie Nelson taught Carl Cestari. Not hard to verify, unlike the mysterious Harold Stairn, who appears in no military records from either the British or Canadian army.

So, what real evidence do you have?

[Askari]

I am going to guide buddy on where to do his research.

This is the supposed only photo of Harald Stairn, except it seems to be misslabeled starn.jpg so we may have to work from two spellings.


The uniform looks sufficiently recent, though the image is sufficiently (convenient eh) out of focus to make it difficult to tell.

Now if buddy who is so Wolfe crazy really wants to prove his thing, the Canadian Archives can get the information for him:

http://www.collectionscanada.ca/

Now, I am sure Wolfe can give us a Unit name right? Even without it you can go down and check the archives.

Now if you decide that Stairn is not Canadian. Try the British Archives:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/

Though I've tried the online options and come up empty, you may have better luck contacting them and asking for a complete search.

[Cdnronin]

In an earlier version of this fable, Stairn was an ex-soldier, trained by Fairbairn at Camp X, who taught Wolfe at a local YMCA. Didn't make sense then,don't make sense now.

[Jim_Jude]

Wow, why didn't he just say he was trained since childhood by an uber-rare Canadian :ninja7: ninja from the Shadow :XXreindee Moose Clan...

[zadar95]

You asked for Lineage and I gave it to you!!! As far as hard to decide weather hes full of shit or not, Bill Wolfe does seminars go to one or come down to Wolfes Defendo in Vancouver and train with us!!! As far as the unit he trained in I can find that info and will post it tommorow. Oh by the way Firedragon thanks for the guide, And Jim_Jude Im pretty sure you were a closet ninja yourself at one time!!!

[firewind]

Just thought I'd pop in here and say I have the three dvds that started this thread. Just got them A week ago. Only reason I bought them is because of the Cestari name.
I can't say much about the first dvd. the basics, because its defective and I have to send it back for a replacement.
As to the other two,advanced and grappling, if you are a rank beginner, good tapes. They seem to be just what they say they are. A core instructional. Not the advertising bs I mean.
Way over priced for me, others may not find it so.
Can anyone tell me where to but the cestari dvds? I read where someone got all of them for 90 bucks. I'd jump on that deal.

[AMERCOM]

I tran in Defendo the really mean shit and I am always looking for something new or something to add to my training, I ordered(and as well sent back) The core Dvds and what a dissapointment there advanced techniques where basic then the 15 seconds on the BoB drill was pathetick. Try 2 or 3 min like where I train. Very dissapointed do not get the DvDs they suck!!!! Those are the Carl Cestari and Damian Ross Dvds

Sorry to hear you dislike the Carl Cestari and Damian Ross training dvds, my training partners and i never had any problems with what they teach,though we spent most of our time in training as taught by John Kary. Bill wolfs Defendo is a fine system. No system on the face of the earth is perfect, all have their strong and weak points. I'd like to suggest after having determined what you feel is lacking in defendo,you examine the other arts that have no relationship to your own.Perhaps you will find what you are looking for to add to Defendo.:smile:

[zadar95]

If you want to see Bill Wolfes latest project he had worked in look for The Devil's Brigade television series is an attempt to illustrate what the men of the First Special Service Force accomplished and the hardships they faced. It's also a challenge to the men of the modern military, to see if they can achieve the same goals and accomplish just one of the missions of those who came before them. www.devilsbrigade.tv. Bill Wolfe was chosen to teach the CQC to the troops.

[zadar95]

Thanks AMERECOM!! It does suck that I didnt like the DvDs. As far no system being perfect I agree. I simply stated that the DvDs sucked and I wont back down from that. 3 DvDs full of learning the Shuto, HammerFist etc etc.. on a BOB I think fails to impress me ,you could have done that in the first 15min of the first DvD. How about learning more about awareness techniques or dealing with ambush attacks, multiple atackers fighting a wrestler, the sucker punch etc.etc. thats the kind of training I do, hell I just bought a book from Marc"animal"Macyoung and that was so much better than the Carl and Damians DvDs. What about the pschology of fighting how to deal with the adrenalin the aftermath. Maybe I just have higher expectations but the DvDs did not impresss me at all.

[Cdnronin]

You asked for Lineage and I gave it to you!!! As far as hard to decide weather hes full of shit or not, Bill Wolfe does seminars go to one or come down to Wolfes Defendo in Vancouver and train with us!!! As far as the unit he trained in I can find that info and will post it tommorow. Oh by the way Firedragon thanks for the guide, And Jim_Jude Im pretty sure you were a closet ninja yourself at one time!!!

Nice tapdancing,there. You do and cut and paste off your instructor's website, with a story full of holes, and try to pass it off as history. Then "you should train with Wolfe to see if he full of shit. If you were paying attention, you would have seen that I have acknowledged that Wolfe has a good system, and has a reputation for training hard. Not questioning the training, questioning the connection to Fairbairn.

[Cdnronin]

If you want to see Bill Wolfes latest project he had worked in look for The Devil's Brigade television series is an attempt to illustrate what the men of the First Special Service Force accomplished and the hardships they faced. It's also a challenge to the men of the modern military, to see if they can achieve the same goals and accomplish just one of the missions of those who came before them. www.devilsbrigade.tv. Bill Wolfe was chosen to teach the CQC to the troops.

So, does this mean that Bill Wolfe also has lineage to Paddy O'Neill? It's great that he was chosen for this project, but the FSSF did not train in FAS style H2H. So, how is this relevant to any part of this discussion, aside from being a fanboy statement about Wolfe?