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Shorinjin-Ryu Saito Ninjitsu

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    #16
    ...& Sorry I posted that before I saw you weren't targeting me... But... Well, it's still a valid question, I'm afraid.

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      #17
      There is quite an extensive thread on e-budo regarding this.

      http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15043&perpage=1 5&highlight=saito%20ryu&pagenumber=1

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        #18
        First off, much thanks to Mr. Talbott for the research. I am glad there are people out there who make the effort to answer the questions instead of just asking them. Good work.

        I guess I should probably know a thing or two about the place. I've been around there ...should be two years this October. I think that's right. I'm just a lowly green belt though, heh.

        Steve McGovern floats around on these kind of forums like me. I am not sure how active he is anymore, or if he even knows Bullshido.com exists. Anyway, he is a black belt in the school. He knows mountains more about the actual content of the art than I do though. He could give some of the answers you're looking for in much clearer terms than my garbled explanation, in this area.

        In any case, the best way to decide (and perhaps producing the most solid conclusion) is to come check it out for yourself.

        I've had my doubts about the history, the techniques, the theory, the principles, the teacher, the people around me, the rug in the "not-quite-a-lobby" area of the new dojo, etc. but those are to be expected of any rational person (except maybe the rug). I've put them aside, and pieces of them have begun to answer themselves in favor of the art (and the rug). So, there you go. For whatever it's worth, I think you are looking at one of the farthest things from Bullshido you can find. I'll see what I can do about sending more information your general way though.



        Edited by - tenguatemypuppy on August 20 2003 17:22:51

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          #19
          I always respect people who defend their art. But do you have any idea why this is actually called 'ninjitsu'? It seems more like some kind of Chinese art from all of the available material.

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            #20
            Yeah, there's a somewhat lengthy explanation that includes several different reasons. Let's see if I can't make a shorter version...

            Basically, we have to understand that "Ninjitsu" is a different word than "Ninjutsu." Even the kanji is different. However, in terms of pronunciation, this difference is almost non-existent.

            They are different words though. "Nin" meaning man, and "jitsu" meaning truth or reality. Hence, we can conclude that "Ninjitsu" means the truth or reality of man. Saito Ninjitsu, as I hear so often in the dojo, is based on understanding human behavior. Rather concurrent with the meaning of "Ninjitsu," it seems.

            Keep in mind I don't speak Japanese. I (currently) only know the relevant material to answer your question.

            Hope that's cleared up.


            Edited by - tenguatemypuppy on August 20 2003 17:54:50

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              #21
              Thank you for your time in answering the questions tenguatemypuppy (I think I'll just call you puppy man from here on to much lenght in your name. ha.ha.ha.haha), and not blasting away at the first site of doubt in your school, which many people do.

              My contact with the SEALs had nothing but good things to say about GM Phelps and Saito Hanshi. I received a reply back from Sifu Mark's organization and the confirmed that he has been a private stude of Sifu Mark for some time. You are very lucky to find a nice school such as that. The next time I visit San Diego, I hope to stop by to check it out. Anyway, I do have some questions for you.


              1) Have you ever done any other system prior to this one?

              2) If so how do you compare them?

              3) If not, as a beginner, how easy is to comprehend the lessons being taught?

              4) Is this more Chinese flavor or Japanese flavor being taught?

              Thanks for coming on our forum
              Jeremy M. Talbott

              Originally posted by Phrost
              "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
              Originally posted by D.Murray
              "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
              Originally posted by hangooknamja88
              My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


              SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!

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                #22
                1) Have you ever done any other system prior to this one?
                Nope. Prior to this, I (as the profile says) mostly read about martial arts in the books I got from bookstores. Even that was pretty limited. Once I started, I went head first into all the material I could find though.

                I tried a karate class once when I was like 5 for about three days. Did wrestling for about 6 months when I was 9 or so. I barely remember either. I'm lucky to remember even having taken them.

                3) If not, as a beginner, how easy is to comprehend the lessons being taught?
                Well, I have a lot of physical coordination issues. Some of which I've taken thearpy for when I was younger (like seven or eight, maybe). Thus, they were very hard for me, personally, to comprehend. This has improved though, as has my overall coordination. Now it's mostly remembering everything, as since day one, we've been bombarded with material. It just never stops coming, which necessitates quite a bit of independent practice.

                The art is obviously complicated, but in a very positive fashion, and definitely not impossible. I have never received bad instruction, so far as I can tell.

                4) Is this more Chinese flavor or Japanese flavor being taught?
                It is obvious that some our Sensei's Chinese arts bleed over into the Japanese area. Again, it is a positive thing though. He always differentiates the two. Never claims one is part of the other. Doesn't mix the two and claim it's one, I guess you could say. I suppose his position is that they compliment each other (which I think is very true). I learned qigong, nei-gong, and various other Chinese exercises as a beginning Ninjitsu student.

                The thing is to remember that he also teaches Chinese arts. There is a whole Chinese side separate and very high value is placed on them.

                Disclaimer: Like I said, I have not been there long enough to make any solid statements of this nature. Consider all this mine own personal observations which may or may not be correct.



                Edited by - tenguatemypuppy on August 20 2003 23:47:53

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                  #23
                  Thank you for the input. I appreciate it.
                  Jeremy M. Talbott

                  Originally posted by Phrost
                  "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
                  Originally posted by D.Murray
                  "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
                  Originally posted by hangooknamja88
                  My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


                  SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Yes, yes, I know, thread necro, but the guidelines say not to start new ones.

                    I found this tidbit on IADO-L's archives:

                    http://listserv.uoguelph.ca/cgi-bin/...=0&T=0&P=17829

                    Relevant quote:

                    "I met Mark Saito about 15 years ago, when I was a grad student in
                    California. He's a very impressive guy and a clearly talented martial
                    artist. At the time, he told me that he used the name "ninjitsu" only as a
                    kind of marketing tool (this was the height of the Stephen Hayes-led ninja
                    boom), but that the art he taught had nothing to do with ninja; it was just
                    a defensive art for Japanese peasants. This is somewhat different from
                    what the web page now claims."

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                      #25
                      Originally posted by shinbushi
                      Biggest problem is Shorinji is Japanese for Shaolin so I doubt that there were any ninja at the Shaolin temple :rolleyes:
                      Actually, I believe it's Shorinjin - the jin term is important, from what I remember; I had a roomate that trained Saito-ryu in Iowa.

                      I dunno, the esoterica I saw associated with the art struck me as a little flaky, but not so far as to call Bullshido. As to the techniques, what I saw looked like kempo to me.

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                        #26
                        i'm really curious about the rug now.

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                          #27
                          Tenkobushi

                          I am currently debating on training in KENJUTSU with him. If I decide to I will post up. I have seen him cut tatami mats and he looked pretty good. Very knowledgable about swords and knew the correct terms for all the parts of the sword and how they are made. Knew some historical facts about Musashi and other Samurai.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by tenguatemypuppy
                            Yeah, there's a somewhat lengthy explanation that includes several different reasons. Let's see if I can't make a shorter version...

                            Basically, we have to understand that "Ninjitsu" is a different word than "Ninjutsu." Even the kanji is different. However, in terms of pronunciation, this difference is almost non-existent.

                            They are different words though. "Nin" meaning man, and "jitsu" meaning truth or reality. Hence, we can conclude that "Ninjitsu" means the truth or reality of man. Saito Ninjitsu, as I hear so often in the dojo, is based on understanding human behavior. Rather concurrent with the meaning of "Ninjitsu," it seems.

                            Keep in mind I don't speak Japanese. I (currently) only know the relevant material to answer your question.

                            Hope that's cleared up.
                            I would need to see the kanji they're using to get some idea of the idea they're trying to convey - HOWEVER - the pronounciation of Ninjitsu and Ninjutsu as you have written them in romanji are very different...

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                              #29
                              I know a guy who used to train with this group. He says it was very combat oriented (read: eye gouges, no "sport" stuff). I recall a bit of the technical stuff: against a punch, you defend by sidestepping and slapping them on the back. Against a bear hug/grab from the front, step into it and strike with both fists to the ribs (using a leopard fist). Follow with double eye rake. Against a pushing attack, use the ulna to lock up the elbow. Basic groundfighting position after falling: key your legs, point legs at opponent for kicking. Weird stuff.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by shinbushi
                                Biggest problem is Shorinji is Japanese for Shaolin so I doubt that there were any ninja at the Shaolin temple :rolleyes:
                                Of course there were.

                                It was just that no one could see them.

                                -dagorilla

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