A first hand account of Systema from a 3 year student

[shmuel]

King of Nigeria, a couple more questions:

1) In your opinion, is Systema made-up, or is it genuinely taught to Spetsnaz?

2) Is the claimed history about being taught by Stalin's bodyguards true?

[Furtry09]

Ok let's examine this statement. If I'm interpreting this correctly you've been training 9+ years with Vlad; apparently after your "MMA" fight. Working backwards 9+ years takes us to 97-98. In 1997-8 MMA was still to large extent in its infancy. So where did this MMA match take place and who sanctioned the event?

The fight was againt Norm Bouchamp(sp?) in '99, in Montreal, under the WKF rules. This was just coming in to Canada.
I also fought in Costa Rica in Vale Tudo tournaments, 95-96. Last fight I had ended with my jaw being broken.

[Gezere]

Ok you Systema dweebs get you ass to the Mega TD in ATL this summer. You have plenty of time to plan.

IT IS NOT THE ART, IT IS THE PRACTITIONER.

This statement is not completely true. Its actualy BOTH the art and the practioner. Sorry but saying the art has nothing to do with it is utter BS. If that was the cas you would have TKD, WC, Aikido, etc having a better showing when matched up against other arts and the fact of the matter is they practioners of these styles get their ass kicked a vast majority of the time.

[Gezere]

The fight was againt Norm Bouchamp(sp?) in '99, in Montreal, under the WKF rules. This was just coming in to Canada.
I also fought in Costa Rica in Vale Tudo tournaments, 95-96. Last fight I had ended with my jaw being broken.

You fought Vale Tudo in Costa Rica from 95-96? Can you provide more specifics?

Also if you mean WKF as in World Karate Federation, they were not doing Vale Tudo or MMA fights in '99, I don't think they do them now but they may since ISKA is now. So can you provide which WKF you are talking about.

[Furtry09]

You fought Vale Tudo in Costa Rica from 95-96? Can you provide more specifics?

Also if you mean WKF as in World Karate Federation, they were not doing Vale Tudo or MMA fights in '99, I don't think they do them now but they may since ISKA is now. So can you provide which WKF you are talking about.

Regarding Costa Rica, it was not under the WKF, I don't remember who specifically put on the tournament. Some Kiokushin Kai organization organized it. They wanted to showcase the style vs style thing. It was held in San Jose at the main sport complex (sitting for about 7K). This was 12 years ago I don't remember all the little details. I decided to compete after being approached at a boxing gym, where I used to train wrestling and boxing, in the same complex.

WKF is the World Kubodo Federation, it was not Vale Tudo. It was an MMA fight with a gi. I think the fight clips made it onto this forum about 4 or 5 years back.

Seriously, my creds. are now being called into question? wow you guys are unreal. It iether the art or the person, if you can't have both.

KoN know who I am and all he has to do is say that 'Demetry is full of shit', but then he would have to eat those words, and he knows it.

[Gezere]

Regarding Costa Rica, it was not under the WKF, I don't remember who specifically put on the tournament. Some Kiokushin Kai organization organized it. They wanted to showcase the style vs style thing. It was held in San Jose at the main sport complex (sitting for about 7K). This was 12 years ago I don't remember all the little details. I decided to compete after being approached at a boxing gym, where I used to train wrestling and boxing, in the same complex.

Convient.:badgrin:

WKF is the World Kubodo Federation, it was not Vale Tudo. It was an MMA fight with a gi. I think the fight clips made it onto this forum about 4 or 5 years back.

World Kobudo was going to be my next guess. You did SPORT JJ.

Seriously, my creds. are now being called into question? wow you guys are unreal.

YES your creds are being question. Any claim you make in support or against a topic can be called into question so stop whinning. If you don't want to get into it then LEAVE. Its that simple but don't complain when pple question you about claims you make in a thread, Got it? Good.

It iether the art or the person, if you can't have both.

Complete and utter BULLSHIT! It CAN and WILL be had both ways because that is called REALITY. The STYLE has a big part on how a person applies a skill set and the PERSON has to be able to apply them in an "alive" manner. If the styles training methodology (which is a defining part of the style) doesn't deal with it then its lacking. I don't see what is hard to understand about that.

[Goju - Joe]

As a WKF member and Sport JJ practitioner I can irrecovably say that Sport JJ is NOT MMA

HOWEVER Sport JJ is a good way for average people like me to gauge their rounded fighting skills for kicking, punching, take downs, grappling and submissions.

So hopefully the thread doesn't degenerate into a SJJ is or isn't MMA thread as it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Jellymans point was the Systema helped his overall fighting skills.

There was a thread on MMA.tv about Vlad and several MMA trained people all had good things to say about Vlad and his skills. Not necessarily about Systema but about Vlad.

The fact is the OP is not very controversial, Systema seems to emphasise methodology and approach rather than specific technique, and if you already have training then the it makes a lot more sense and is more applicable.

So it seems that the challenge Systema needs to address is hoe to make people understand this better or how to incorporate more technique into it's training.

The problem it seems is that on a philosophical level Systema is against the type of repetitious and focused drilling that is necessary to build techniques.

Fo example on one of the Toronto websites I read the instructor talks about not having mats and practicing on hard wood floor because in real life you don't have mats to break your fall and need to adjust your understanding for that reality.

In truth he's correct, however when it comes to drilling things like arm drags or hip throws over and over and over again well enough to do them you need to have mats to prevent injury to get good enough at the technique.

A discussion of the dichotomy of systema training practices and other theory's would be more interesting however I am sure I'll be ignored and the thread will be like all other Systema threads, redundant and ghey.

[EricH]

In truth he's correct, however when it comes to drilling things like arm drags or hip throws over and over and over again well enough to do them you need to have mats to prevent injury to get good enough at the technique.

yes but... there is real risk here in that as you drill these techniques on a mat you are also drilling the falling part on a mat. This can lead to habits that are very damaging on less forgiving surfaces. The judo/aikido arm slap to diffuse to force of a fall on the back is a very good example.

A discussion of the dichotomy of systema training practices and other theory's would be more interesting however I am sure I'll be ignored and the thread will be like all other Systema threads, redundant and ghey.

Systema training works backwards, first you learn to fall on hard surfaces. Then you learn to throw people on hard surfaces. Mats still are quite useful as throws are practiced for specific damage... e.g. throw such that the opponent's head snaps into ground, throw such that shoulder and neck are compressed on impact, etc

There has been quite a lot of good discussion of training dichotomies wrt systema. Unfortunately this discussion is buried between KungFoolss' jerkoff sessions. Wise application of he ignore function will help you locate the meat of the discussion.

Systema take a very different and very interesting approach to training. For what it is worth I came into systema with only several years of dabbling in other arts... nothing serious enough to build skills. Through systema I was quickly able to coalesce this into something useful.

[Kungfoolss]

World Kobudo was going to be my next guess. You did SPORT JJ.

I guess it's different than mma. Well, it even says it was sports jjj on his pals website ->

wkf99 (15 mb) Furtry in a sport JJJ tournament after a year of systema. Elements were added to his game at this point. This is not pure systema, as that would get him disqualified. For example, systema kicks would not be recognized as legit techniques by the refs, so kickboxing-ish kicks were used instead. Specific systema elements follow:
9 - 12 secs - takedown counter to roundhouse. See H2H series

1:03 - 1:09 - takes hit to head, but using systema flinch/yeild tactic
minimizes impact, and so continues unphazed. Observe that the
foot off the round kick comes straight down, signifying follow-through
and not snapping. See H2H series.

1:26 - 1:29 - Using systma movement tactics, evades all strikes of a 3 strike combo.
See H2H series.

1:38 - 1:40 - Using systema relaxation technique, softens leg so that round kick passes through.
Uses resulting torque to power systema whip strike (see H2H series for whip strike).

2:04 - 2:06 -soft leg again

2:09 - 2:11 - systema whipping fists (see H2H). The nice thing about this one
is that you can either get a lot of hits or a lot of space with not much energy use.

3:15 - 3:18 - this is a straight-up tai otoshi, but in systema you will see variants on this kind of throw.
Usually an 'illegal' one. Illegal for judo, anyway.

3:36 -37 - Tapout (you can see the glove flash by my friend's left shoulder).
But... well, My friend's a nidan and he's a godan... old boyz network? I dunno. My buddy goes along
with it, but now he's a bit pissed, and that plus the fatigue puts him
in old-school bullrush mode.

4:03 for a while - Beauchamp, knowing my buddy's now out for blood,
physically grabs my buddy from the bottom, giving up Osaekomi points instead of
taking his licks. In fact, you can see my buddy struggling to get off him. Rules prevented striking with elbows or knees.

Fight's over, Furtry takes gold.

http://groups.msn.com/RMAHamilton/videoclips.msnw

[Goju - Joe]

yes but... there is real risk here in that as you drill these techniques on a mat you are also drilling the falling part on a part. This can lead to habits that are very damaging on less forgiving surfaces. The judo/aikido arm slap to diffuse to force of a fall on the back is a very good example.

Not to side track the discussion but I think it's germain, the Aikido Uekemi - arm slapping and all, is the only real wide world useful application I ever learned in Aikido.

I say this from taking some nasty falls such as going full speed on a mountain bike and having the front wheel come off and do a flip through the air.

I went into an automatic aikido roll, arm slapping and all. I scraped the crap out of my hands however my head and rest of me was OK.

So while I understand your point I think you are actually missing something useful.

The repetative drilling made that breakfall come with out thinking and saved me greater injury, and the hand slaping helped.

[EricH]

The repetative drilling made that breakfall come with out thinking and saved me greater injury, and the hand slaping helped.

not to further side track the discussion but...

I assume that you were not moutain biking on the hard rock of Moab but instead on a relatively soft dirt surface. Results would not have been so favorable on concrete.

Make no mistake... systema believes in repetitive drilling, expecially of falling or hitting the deck. The only thing I have trained as repetitively as falling is the taking of blows (punches and kicks). The difference is that training for falling in systema is extremely dynamic and done a different surfaces (soft, hard, uneven, rocky, etc.

[Goju - Joe]

not to further side track the discussion but...

I assume that you were not moutain biking on the hard rock of Moab but instead on a relatively soft dirt surface. Results would not have been so favorable on concrete.

Make no mistake... systema believes in repetitive drilling, expecially of falling or hitting the deck. The only thing I have trained as repetitively as falling is the taking of blows (punches and kicks). The difference is that training for falling in systema is extremely dynamic and done a different surfaces (soft, hard, uneven, rocky, etc.

Actually I was crossing a high way and tried to jump the concrete curb of the island dividing the two lanes, when my tire decided to stay behind. So it was on concrete. Also I wasn't wearing a helmet (dumb me) I hit it hard enough that I bent the front spokes of my bike.
Cars stopped to see if I was OK and when I got up right away they applauded (I was too pissed at the time to appreciate the humour)

So years of Aikdo breakfalls and rolls and such may not save my ass getting beaten but it did save me from serious injury that day.

I also had an other experience running through a parking lot at night an stepping in a hole and went right into a front roll - On concrete.

So while I understand the principles behind the Systema approcach to falling and break falls I feel the repetition that mats allow you to achieve and the subsequent reflexes you develop for falling out ways the negatives.

So in my experience a mated surface is better to train on.

[Furtry09]

YES your creds are being question. Any claim you make in support or against a topic can be called into question so stop whinning. If you don't want to get into it then LEAVE. Its that simple but don't complain when pple question you about claims you make in a thread, Got it? Good.

What a convenient double standard. KoN has 3 yrs at club Vlad and nothing else his cred are accepted at face value. Is that because his opinion supports yours?
Yet, I have 25 yrs in MA, the last 9 at Club Vlad, I get attacked. Is that because my views do not support yours?

[Furtry09]

Actually I was crossing a high way and tried to jump the concrete curb of the island dividing the two lanes, when my tire decided to stay behind. So it was on concrete. Also I wasn't wearing a helmet (dumb me) I hit it hard enough that I bent the front spokes of my bike.

Cars stopped to see if I was OK and when I got up right away they applauded (I was too pissed at the time to appreciate the humour)

So years of Aikdo breakfalls and rolls and such may not save my ass getting beaten but it did save me from serious injury that day.

I also had an other experience running through a parking lot at night an stepping in a hole and went right into a front roll - On concrete.

So while I understand the principles behind the Systema approcach to falling and break falls I feel the repetition that mats allow you to achieve and the subsequent reflexes you develop for falling out ways the negatives.

So in my experience a mated surface is better to train on.

Club Vlad now also has judo tatame. Same reasons, too many falls on concrete has a tendency to do damage. Students tend to leave after getting hurt by the concrete floor.
Another reason for not doing breakfalls is that this being a military focused art, you usually have a weapon in hand, thus a breakfall is not always possible.
EricH can elaborate as I showed this in Seattle.

[Gezere]

What a convenient double standard.

I am starting to think your dim and miss some basic comprehension skills.
Its not a double standard its reality.

[quote] KoN has 3 yrs at club Vlad and nothing else his cred are accepted at face value. Is that because his opinion supports yours?
Yet, I have 25 yrs in MA, the last 9 at Club Vlad, I get attacked. Is that because my views do not support yours?
Gee show me in the thread where I accepted KON stuff on face value? I didn't say anything for or against him so get you point straight and stop sounding like a whiny bitch.

Sure you don't. Now you sound like a jealous whiny bitch. If you actually read it looks like most pple have been questioning him. You just seem upset that is doesn't match YOUR view, and you have the nerve to talk about double standards.

What proof do you have of this. Given that I have spoken, worked, and trained with Russian soldiers, including spetnzaz, none seem to be able to support such claims. I've only hear this from the systema crowd. I don't doubt that systema may have be taught to some but given the recations to Vlad's book and vid clips I have shown them they don't know what the hell is suppose to be.