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    #16
    Excellent points, Matt. That ties in with the other thread I started (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52243) - I'd appreciate your input there. I'll throw out some ideas about the two you've listed; see if you agree.

    Bullshidoka Argument #13 - I've already answered those questions. Go back and find them yourself.

    Counter - First and most obvious, check to make sure those questions haven't actually been answered. If they have, acknowledge it. If not, tell the bullshidoka that you have checked but you were unable to find anything that answers your particular questions. Than restate the questions - if they're already answered those questions, they shouldn't be too torn up by having to answer them again. If this is a consistent pattern, the poster who makes this argument is not a credible source of information and should be dismissed (ignored, posts removed, etc).

    Bullshidoka Argument #14 - I'm not going to do your research for you.

    Counter - This is where I view the 'put up or shut up' coming into play. If you're not going to assist with an investigation, don't post on the thread. If you have information you could contribute but choose not to, fine - we can't force people to give information. If you don't have the answer, that's fine too - part of an investigation is identifying credible sources of information. Either way, don't clutter up a thread.

    Comment


      #17
      This is worth a sticky, at least until the article can be written, also would it be worth refining it on .org as it's in a convenient wiki format?

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Matt W.
        One favored tactic (and hopefully no one has said this already) is to drag an argument on for days/pages without answering any questions, and then at some later point start claiming "I already answered those questions. Go back and find them yourself."

        There's also the "I'm not going to do your research for you" line that is used to avoid answering questions.
        Hopefully this list will help that from ever happening, by having quick, succinct answers to all their bullshit, therefore keeping the thread from getting cluttered.

        Also, here's a good, short book on logical fallacies:

        http://www.amazon.com/Nonsense-Handb...3376082&sr=8-1

        I enjoyed it a lot and it really helps one cut through all the bullshit politicians spit out, or in this case, Bullshidoka's.

        Comment


          #19
          #15: My credentials can't be backed up because the training was super secret/the government won't allow it.

          Counter: If you can't validate your credentials, you should at the very least be able to validate your skills.

          Comment


            #20
            I'd add to #15 that credentials that are super secret wouldn't be shared at all, not shared with the caveat that no verification is available.

            That is similar to a large number of arguments, though, I'd suggest rewording it to:
            My credentials can't be backed up because (insert reason here).
            Including - they were destroyed in a house fire, lost in a move, currently at someone else's house, top secret, my sensei won't allow me to share his name, et cetera.

            Whenever possible, I'd suggest asking for verification of the excuse (a house fire, you say? A check with the fire department can verify that - what was the address and date). If verification is impossible (super secret) or not forthcoming, I would make a note that the person was unwilling or unable to provide evidence about a particular claim.

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by CodosDePiedra
              #15: My credentials can't be backed up because the training was super secret/the government won't allow it.
              How about combining this with the claim that "my fight record is from the kumite/underground NHB matches/pit fights controlled by the yakuza/triads/mafia so it can't be verified to outsiders" This seems to be a perennial favorite, from Dux onwards to dozens of bullshidokas

              Comment


                #22
                #16 Argumentum ad Populum: Many other styles do X, so we shall also do X.

                #17 Vague answers: This brings to mind, "Do you charge for testing fees?" And the answer might come as "I personally don't see any money from it," being a roundabout way of saying "Yes, we do have testing fees."

                Comment


                  #23
                  Ironlurker, I think that would apply to the second paragraph of my last post.

                  Good ones, Kistrael.
                  Counter #16 - The actions of others do not make yours acceptable or correct. Many people thought the sun was in orbit around the earth for a long time - that doesn't make it valid.

                  Coutner #17 - Push for details. When all else fails, request a simple yes or no.

                  Comment


                    #24

                    Answer from Grandmaster: If you challenge me I choose weapon, and I choose knife fight to the death, in my dojo, with no witness. Not interested? Thought so!

                    Symptom: Any challenge to the Bullshido Master is countered from him with a race to a level that I absurd, dangerous and sometimes illegal.



                    :icon_bigg

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Tom Kagan made a good suggestion:

                      Bullshidoka Argument #18 - Intentionally cluttering a thread to bury or derail an investigation.

                      This is not so much a particular argument that can be used by a Bullshidoka, but is instead a strategy that may draw on any number of arguments. The purpose is to clutter the original investigative thread with so much crap that either the focus shifts, the thread is completely derailed, or so much irrelevant information is provided that the important stuff is buried. This also sets the stage for Argument #13, above.

                      Counter - Keep the investigation on focus and use the "Report Post" button for irrelevant posts.

                      Lazarov, I appreciate the contribution, but this thread is specifically about arguments used during investigations, not challenges. I'll reword your suggestion in my next post - see if you agree.
                      Last edited by OnceLost; 3/09/2007 7:39am, .

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Bullshidoka Argument #19 - Unreasonable conditions for information.

                        This is similar to Argument #10, but instead of requesting information of the investigator this argument involves an attempt to set up a situation that discourages someone from investigating. This can include offering information under conditions that unrealistic or are reasonably deemed absurd (such as Ashida Kim demanding $10,000 before he would accept a challenge match) to conditions that are dangerous or illegal. For example, the subject of an investigation agrees to meet for an interview, but only if you come to his dojo by yourself in the wee hours of the morning.

                        Counter - If the subject isn't willing to compromise enough to provide information in a safe manner (such as an interview in a neutral location or in the presence of a witness), then make a note and explanation - "The subject made Bullshidoka Argument #19; he was unwilling to provide this information unless we first fought with swords to first blood, an obviously unsafe practice."
                        Last edited by OnceLost; 3/12/2007 1:03pm, . Reason: Excellent suggestion by Kistrael.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by OnceLost
                          Tom Kagan made a good suggestion:

                          Bullshidoka Argument #18 - Intentionally cluttering a thread to bury or derail an investigation.

                          This is not so much a particular argument that can be used by a Bullshidoka, but is instead a strategy that may draw on any number of arguments. The purpose is to clutter the original investigative thread with so much crap that either the focus shifts, the thread is completely derailed, or so much irrelevant information is provided that the important stuff is buried. This also sets the stage for Argument #13, above.

                          Counter - Keep the investigation on focus and use the "Report Post" button for irrelevant posts.

                          Lazarov, I appreciate the contribution, but this thread is specifically about arguments used during investigations, not challenges. I'll reword your suggestion in my next post - see if you agree.
                          Ah, the old 'argumentum ad nauseam' play.
                          (argument to the point of disgust; e.g, by repetition or other means.)

                          The problem with your suggested counter is that most of the time, it isn't just errata which is being inserted into the discussion. A lot of what is usually posted during this tactic is not of the 'MediumMike' class of posts. Such tactics are incredibly annoying to see because items you think are settled are being brought back into the conversation time and time again. These posts really cannot be removed from the discussion as easily as you suggest because they are technically still on topic. (For examples as reference: just about any __ng __un or Systema thread, or many of the Mantis guy's posts in the Comba-Tai MABS thread currently still active.)
                          Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
                          "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

                          "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

                          My Bullshido fan club threads:
                          Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
                          Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
                          Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
                          Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
                          Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a pussy or just cruising for some
                          I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
                          TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
                          ATTN TOM KAGAN
                          World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
                          Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
                          I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
                          Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            It might be on topic, but if it has already been discussed I think that should be pointed out to keep the investigation on topic and the post should be reported. For example:

                            "Investigation Subject, your last post is the same argument you've made in several posts in this thread (# 12, 15, 18, and 19). That issue has already been address. I've reported your post because your repetition is not offering anything new and just serves to clutter the thread."

                            Even if it isn't removed, at least the argument is identified. Don't respond to the argument, just identify it and carry on...

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Originally posted by OnceLost
                              Bullshidoka Argument #19 - Unreasonable conditions for information.

                              This is similar to Argument #10, but instead of requesting information of the investigator this argument involves offering information under conditions that are reasonably deemed absurd, dangerous, or illegal. For example, the subject of an investigation agrees to meet for an interview, but only if you come to his dojo by yourself in the wee hours of the morning.

                              Counter - If the subject isn't willing to compromise enough to provide information in a safe manner (such as an interview in a neutral location or in the presence of a witness), then make a note and explanation - "The subject made Bullshidoka Argument #19; he was unwilling to provide this information unless we first fought with swords to first blood, an obviously unsafe practice."
                              Perhaps we should expand this one?

                              This brings up another argument we've seen before: the accused will challenge the accusers, not by reputation, but to an actual fight, or somesuch nonsense. They may most likely have unreasonable terms of agreement, i.e Ashida Kim's $10,000 Challenge. Other things include generally unsportsman-like rules.

                              In any case, trying to set up a situation that dissuades the person from investigating.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Sorry, Kistrael, I didn't even see your response until now. I think Ashida Kim's $10,000 challenge is an excellent example of a situation that dissuades the challenger. Keep in mind the difference between a 'challenger' and an 'investigator,' but the strategy is the same. I think you summarized it very well by explaining it as an attempt to "set up a situation that dissuades the person from investigating."

                                I've edited the post to make it more expansive.

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