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  • PizDoff
    replied
    "Seriously though, I'd like some examples of individual techniques that are too complex."

    it is relative.......
    just wanted you guys to think about it

    --
    Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spunky
    replied
    I think of techniques as things that happen, not things you set out to do. If you TRY to make them happen, like any single-minded intention of accomplishment, not only do you have to overpower resistance but you close your mind off to all other courses of action.

    Kata showing "complex" techniques are not showing how to do something, but rather illustrating the conditions that make them possible. You cannot MAKE someone do what you want, you can only move your own body in particular ways and depending on how the other person reacts techniques happen.

    If you walk up and try to throw someone, you will obviously be met with a great deal of resistance; it becomes a battle of strength. Same case if you try to grab onto someones wrist and twist it into a lock. However, if he happens to lean back a particular way for whatever reason and you are in the right position, you could easily step in and enter what turns out to be an effortless koshinage. Or his wrist ends up in your hands and a simple turn produces an omote gyaku, and while his next action escapes this lock he opens another vulnerability described in some kata.

    Complex techniques are just a chain of cause and effect that result from two fighters taking a continual pattern of good options until a loser is produced. My two cents.

    Leave a comment:


  • fragbot
    replied
    Does someone actually teach forward thrust kicks whilst hopping backwards? I've seen that in video games, but for real??
    A well-known CMA instructor was teaching us this. I'd pretty much assumed it was an impossible technique to use until he explained how he'd used it to win a tournament in Beijing. His opponent--a mantis guy--kept attacking with strong forward pressure and he kept hopping back on one leg and eventually kicked him.

    The end result: a tomoe nage-ish (minus the sutemi) action where his opponent was thrown off the platform and a coupla rows into the crowd.

    FWIW, I still don't believe it's a high percentage technique.

    Maybe that's a more useful way to discuss technique. . .instead of wondering if something "too complex," it might be edifying to SWAG the probability on a given technique's success.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skummer
    replied
    [quote]
    SKUMMER----please cut the bullshit man.

    the only thing that will save you is reaction, either you have what it takes to win, or you don't.

    you can practice a technique until your blue in the face, it ain't gonna save you.


    Let me also say that I agree with you in part. Technique must combine with instinct to become viable in a live situation. Mechanical technique without instinct will simply not work.

    fragbot,
    I know what you mean about low sweeps. I personally wouldn't bother with them due to my messed up knee, but I've seen people who can do them very well. I've been hit with an iron broom sweep before. Not only does it work, but it hurts mightily as well.

    Does someone actually teach forward thrust kicks whilst hopping backwards? I've seen that in video games, but for real??



    - Skummer -

    If you think you can speak about Tao, it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
    -Lao Tzu

    Leave a comment:


  • SamHarber
    replied
    iriminage (a technique I don't think I know).
    Iriminage is when you step behind your opponent, turn them towards you by their should/neck and arm, and then lift under their head before dropping through their body with the same arm you lifted them with.
    Done quickly its like being hit by a train.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skummer
    replied
    [quote]
    SKUMMER----please cut the bullshit man.

    the only thing that will save you is reaction, either you have what it takes to win, or you don't.

    you can practice a technique until your blue in the face, it ain't gonna save you.


    My point is that what one person thinks is too complex doesn't mean it's too complex in another's view. I think the problem here is that many people are viewing techniques from their viability in a sort of NHB fight. Many techniques are clearly designed for situations other than straight up fights.

    Many chin na, jujutsu, & aikido techniques are useful for restraint or countering common holds an untrained person might use, but they aren't really all that effective against someone who's trying to blitz you with a flurry of punches.

    Now I agree that a 540 sweep or kick is absurd. Why would anyone even do that? Some applications you'll see on cma sites are retarded as well. Is it because the techniques themselves are 100% unworkable? Ususally, no. It's because of the context in which they present them. Such as flinging your arms open to hit an attacker's head with a slicing beak fist while the attacker is right in front of you, loaded to strike.




    - Skummer -

    If you think you can speak about Tao, it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
    -Lao Tzu

    Leave a comment:


  • Skummer
    replied
    [quote]
    Complex techniques can teach simple principles. It sounds like Skummer is describing Shihonage which is an appalingly complex technique. However.. it does incorporate a couple of simple principles that can be of use in a lot of situations.
    Its not a teching method that I'd endorse though.


    No, it's not shihonage. It's far more complex than that. I think I could get the simpler versions of shiho to work in sparring if I managed to off balance my opponent properly. The thing I was refering to was an application to "rollback". You don't even grab your opponent, you just guide him into a lock. Right.






    - Skummer -

    If you think you can speak about Tao, it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
    -Lao Tzu

    Leave a comment:


  • fragbot
    replied
    <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:
    I know how you feel, I've had my shoulder nearly dislocated several times by newbies. When you tell them that a particular way is very nasty and will lead to permenant injury, they seem to go for that deliberately instead of letting off the pressure.
    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote>

    I don't think it's so much they intentionally do it. In my decidedly non-aiki estimation, it's just that the technique requires so much finesse and control it should only be taught and trained by people with extensive experience. I think outside seoi nage is in the same class of techniques as well (AKA the senior class voted it "the techniques most likely to injure your compadre").

    Somewhere on the web there's some research on aikido injuries. Compared to judo, they've had more paralyzations and fatalities. IIRC, they were caused almost exclusively by shihonage and iriminage (a technique I don't think I know).

    Leave a comment:


  • SamHarber
    replied
    As an aside, I f'ing hate being uke for shihonage. This is particularly true if the person is new.
    I know how you feel, I've had my shoulder nearly dislocated several times by newbies. When you tell them that a particular way is very nasty and will lead to permenant injury, they seem to go for that deliberately instead of letting off the pressure.

    Leave a comment:


  • fragbot
    replied
    Complex techniques?

    To use myself as an example, there are at least two kicking techniques I've been shown that I thought were too slow or difficult to do and wouldn't work--low sweeps and a thrusting, front kick while continuously hopping backwards.

    I then met people who'd actually used them in real life so as I get older I'm less sure about proclaiming something too complex.

    All that being said, for once I agree with Jamoke, it's all about basics. I'd ask the following question though: does practicing complex stuff accelerate the improvement of your basics? I can see reasons to answer in the affiramative as well as the negative.

    As an aside, I f'ing hate being uke for shihonage. This is particularly true if the person is new.

    Leave a comment:


  • Jamoke
    replied
    SKUMMER----please cut the bullshit man.

    the only thing that will save you is reaction, either you have what it takes to win, or you don't.

    you can practice a technique until your blue in the face, it ain't gonna save you.

    Leave a comment:


  • SamHarber
    replied
    Complex techniques can teach simple principles. It sounds like Skummer is describing Shihonage which is an appalingly complex technique. However.. it does incorporate a couple of simple principles that can be of use in a lot of situations.
    Its not a teching method that I'd endorse though.

    Leave a comment:


  • Skummer
    replied
    ANYTHING YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT!


    Indeed. However, with practice a seemingly complex technique can become second nature.

    Take the throw "puter kapela" from silat. This throw looks complex to the casual observer because of its unusual nature, yet the throw still works and actually exists in numerous other styles. I'd also say that an "omoplata" looks like a complex technique, but it works anyway.

    Now I have seen aikido clips where the guy demonstrating will pull his uke this way, step under his arm and pull the other way, then turn around and finally throw the guy. If that kinda crap is one technique, then I'd say it's far too complex. However, I've always assumed it was a few techniques strung together for dramatic purposes.





    - Skummer -

    If you think you can speak about Tao, it is clear you don't know what you're talking about.
    -Lao Tzu

    Leave a comment:


  • Jamoke
    replied
    "Please give an example of an overly complex technique."


    ANYTHING YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT!

    Leave a comment:


  • Stold3
    replied
    That's one cool thing, we never did those goofy trick kicks in my TKD classes.

    Leave a comment:

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