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Internal vs External Commentary

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    Internal vs External Commentary

    IMA are filled with charlatans and new-age hippie-freaks. This is absolutely true in today's world. Add in all the Hokey-Pokey Chi-demonstrations, and other outright bullcrap and this is the sad sad fate of IMA today. BUT, with that said, there are some of us who believe and live the principles that they apply (or at least try to). It's my guess that for every 10 IMA schools there is ONE doing the real deal or trying to. Unfortunately, that number may be decreasing even more as I write this post. I find this to be very very sad. I think it hurts MA on the whole.

    This is becoming a real quandary, what to do, what to do? It's no wonder the BJJ gyms are filling up so quickly as of late. I guess one of the real problems is the fact that most Americans are the "I need it now" kinda folks. With this mindset you can never gain benefits from CIMA; it's takes so much longer to achieve a high skill level than say Karate for example. This may be the root of all the anti-IMA speak of lately. I don't really know. I'm just throwing this out here.

    It's much quicker and easier to take BJJ, Karate, MT, or some other external style to learn to fight. This I agree with, but other than that, I still side with the IMA.

    As I have stated before in other topics.... You can't be rollin around on the ground when you're 60 and 70 years old, BUT you can practice the IMA for EVER. This is an undeniable fact! Besides, what's the rush to be such a good fighter anyway??? Unless your goal is to compete in the octagon or some other full-contact event (and for most folks in MA, this is NOT their goal) there is absolutely NO POINT to any of it (except EGO gratification and a damaged childhood).

    So, IMHO, I just go about my weekly training with no particular goals or competition in mind. Who cares how tough you are, what rank you are, or how much of a bad-ass you are. In the end it doesn't mean diddly-squat!! Personally speaking, I'm not looking to fight anyone nor do I feel the need to compete. If that's your thing then cool, go fight! I have to fight myself everyday to stay on the correct path and keep myself in the right mindset. You know, self-discipline and all that. I have no time to fight other people just for the "sport" of it. If I get attacked, I will fight and I will try my best to hurt you, but I certainly won't go out of my way looking for it. Enough said for now.... Now flame away........ Peace.

    I couldn't have said it better myself... bravo Balloonknot.

    Hope that meteor shower doesn't hit ya too soon now.

    --A poor band player I was, but now I am crocodile king. --
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      This internal / external divide is bullshit - is just a question of efficiency. Plenty of "external" stylist remain effective in older age, as they become more efficient in what they do. Doesn't Helio (sp?) Gracie still manage to roll around? Or is it maybe because these guys have real experience, something lacking for 95% of CMA internalists I'd wager?


        LOL TaeBo! Thanks.

        RobP, I'm sure there are some "older" folks still rollin but in general you know I'm right (not many do or will). I guess you didn't read my commentary too well. Anyway, good luck with whatever you do!


          I would like to shake your hand, well said. I have been lurking here for sometime and must agree. I have noticed that the ones who down play the internal side are in the early stages of there training. I also feel if you have 8 years training you are still in the early stages. I would like to see the direction they take when they are pushing 40 and have 20 years of training and knowledge. I had a shihan once tell me that
          " once the mind is closed, progress stops. Until you dedicate the time and do it you can not judge it " and most do not they are hung up on proving to themselves that they are in the best style by way of my style is better than yours.

          Ever been punched in the mouth for talking too much : Xander ( vin diesal )in the movie TRIPLE X
          After reading Jekyll's threads I bring back an old sig.......

          Do you really train or just bore people on message boards and parties talking about it.


            Machismo + EGO = Stupidity


              Well Balloon you make a good point (dork head), and though I don't believe in internal martial arts per se (bullshit), I really have to agree with you (asshole). IMHO (god's word), I believe its just another aspect of physics (redundant), and I think tha IMA (idiots), should come out of the dark ages (IRAQ), and just define everything in modern terms (jerking off)

              all seriousness, well said take out the parenthesis and that's what I feel.

              Go away I'm talking to myself


                Good post. But the hippieness does attract people.

                BJJ is filling up due to the fact that it dominates on ground and UFC exposure.

                Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
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                  BJJ = NON-NEW-AGE-HIPPIES maybe??


                    I personaly think that the destinction between internal and external martial arts is silly and artificial.

                    Take for example BJJ and aikido. For some strange reason, BJJ is considered to be "external" and Aikido "internal", even though they rely on the same principles and try to achieve the same results. Why the distinction? Because BJJ actually works?

                    If I was to divide martial arts into camps, I would say that there are traditional arts, and there are progressive arts.

                    Traditional arts are the ones that do certain things because that's the way it's been done in the past. As a result, they have pretty ritualsistic practices, but do not develop or advance. Aikido, for example, is a perfect example of a traditional art. They dress up in fancy uniforms, follow an archaic protocol, and have highly ritualized and choreographed excersises. They do not compete and they do not evolve. (Now, I'm sure there's "progressive" aikido out there - I'm generalizing).

                    Then there's progressive arts. These arts focus on what works as opposed to tradition. As a result, they constantly evolve and adapt new techniques and strategies, and drop old ones that have become obsolete. Progressive arts are tested on a regular basis. BJJ is a perfect example of a progressive art, with various little innovations that are being developed as we speak. Krav Maga is another, constantly adapting to the changes in the world MA scene.Kukushinkai (sp?) Karate is something that started out progressive, but seems to be becoming traditional now.

                    Now, it is obvious that proressive arts are more efficient in fighting. This is simply due to the fact that they are ocnstantly tested and improved. It is obvious.

                    This is not to say that traditiona arts are useless in fighting. They are not, and this is also obvious.

                    Different people chose different things depending on their goals, willingness to work hard and deal with pain, and character.

                    I remain, Hapko3
                    You say what about my rice?


                      I would like to see the direction they take when they are pushing 40 and have 20 years of training and knowledge. I had a shihan once tell me that
                      " once the mind is closed, progress stops.
                      LOL I had to laugh at that, having turned 40 last week and having over 20 years of training and having recently given up the CIMA.


                        I would like to see the direction they take when they are pushing 40 and have 20 years of training and knowledge. I had a shihan once tell me that
                        " once the mind is closed, progress stops.
                        LOL I had to laugh at that, having turned 40 last week and having over 20 years of training and having recently moved away from the CIMA.

                        Here's a few more examples: Ip Tai Tak (taiji master, 70's - shot knees and poor health). Yang Sau Cheung (now deceased, died in his 70's heavy smoker). Cheng Man Ching (taiji master - died late 50's / early 60's? heavy drinker). Yang Cheng Fu - let's not even go there....

                        In the news here last year - an old age pensioner gets mugged and puts his attacker in hospital. He was an ex Commando, serv

                        ed in WW2 -guess we can thank Fairbairn and Sykes for that one ;-)
                        It's not so much that it "takes a long time", it's more that there is no-one to look to for an example. At the moment the CIMA offer a lot of promises, at the end of a long road, but seem to fall down somewhat on delivery.


                          I agree with the spirit of your comments on IMA ... that there should be no rush to become a fighter, etc. However, we should remember that these arts were originally developed to be effective, and were considered 'higher' martial arts. For example, I would guess that young martial artists in ancient days practiced so called 'hard' styles in their youth while building up their skill in the so called 'soft' styles. In other words, both styles complimented each other.

                          If we take Tai Chi Chuan as an example, we should rember that this styles' (e.g. Yang, Wu, Chen, etc.) 'families' taught their children from about the age of 6. Thus, when they were in their teen and early adult years, they had developed a very effective level of skill.

                          Of course, in today's world, that level of training is difficult to accomplish. So, if you need to learn some self defense quickly, by all means take Karate or Thai Kickboxing or whatever helps you. But, you may also want to start training in Tai Chi Chuan (I recommend Wu Style of course), or Bagua, or Hsing I, 'on the side' to compliment your training ... so that when you are 60, you can still be healthy and lethal.

                          - DMcK


                            hey balloonknot, seems like the both of us have been a little more tolerable lately, hey!

                            "When attacked insult, and insult to kill"


                              I think the main reason for the IMA to have been a major subject of mcdojoisation, is that fact that they LOOK easy.

                              To those of us that study them we relise that this is not the case, take my shiho nage as an example of a throw that I have been working resently have to get right. And I cant, at the moment it is purely cosmetic and lacking the power to put down some colour blind hedge hogs, but, my Sensei, that has been studying Aikido long enough to gain its more martial abilities has an amazing shihonage of which I can only

                              Also, each IMA has its own harder styles with in it, at one end you have Yoshinkan (hard), Aikikai (middle) and Ki (the style I study, also the softest) Yang and Chen tai chi, some many distinctions that make the style you study more suited to you. But within these styles, and I am certain this is not just an Aikido phemonone(sp) they over lap. Some of the best Yoshinkan guys (Chida Sensei) is known to be very soft, I have heard of some Ki Aikido guys to develope very "solid" ki. I remember reading Chida Sensei saying that "If Aikido does not look a little fake then its not Aikido".

                              The IMA (sorry to appear ingorant to other styles)show a lot of personality when you do them. How you are as a person is reflected in how you move and how you respect (or not) your uke.

                              I would be lieing if I said that I started Aikido for non self defence reasons (perhaps foolishly), but thats not why I stayed. There have been atleast 5 times when I have nearly left my Aikido dojo seeking something more real, having sat in on Boxing/ modern JJ (not Gracie)/Karate/Judo(which I x train in) I have not seen one teacher that rivials what I have experienced in my dojo.

                              Although this may seem cliched, you must do what makes you happy. If you dont enjoy your training I dont think its likely that you'll ever last long enough to reap the benefits.




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