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Grappling, Striking, and Self Defence

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    #16
    Hap,

    You and I do basically agree on everything that is really important, i.e. the goals of proper SD training, but the devil is in the details or the applications of such such goals.

    "Or martial arts techniques, that can not be learned in one day, apply to 5% of self defence situations, and with a very low probability at that?"

    I agree martial arts can't be learned in one of or even truely mastered in a lifetime, but we don't need to turn everyone into Bruce Lee. We just need to give them some easy to us tools that will help. My instructor, a fourth degree black belt in one art and a founder of his own, doesn't teach "martial arts" in his self-defense classes, and probably wouldn't use either martial art in a real life fight. He claims he can teach everything necessary for a person to physcially defend themselves in most situations in about two hours. Not just show them, but get them able to actually do it. In his classes, that are 4 hours long, only half is devoted to anything physcial. The risk assement aspects, the situation defusal, and personal awareness skills are all taught separately and combine with the fighitng skills at the end for a complete package.

    If you're curious the fighting skills he teaches are the following:

    A basic, balanced fighting stance where both arms and both legs are ready to use for offensive or defense purposes.

    On Defense: Sweeping out large zones or planes of movement when faced with an attack and making the decision to either then run like hell or go directly to and attack the center of your attacker.

    On Offense: Solid knees and elbows and a palm/hammer fist strike modeled after throwing a baseball.

    Like I said, that's all he teaches and all he would use in a real fight.

    "If you're confronted by someone, chances are they will back right off when you draw your firearm. And if they don't back off, then they're a fucking psychopath, and you're justified to defend yourself"

    Again true, but you have to be really prepared for both possibilites. People that are counting on their attack to back off when a firearm is drawn are usually not prepared for what the reprocussions might be if that doesn't happen. I'm not just talking about not being able to aim accuraelty or physically pull the trigger. Even police officers and professional soliders are often not fully prepared for the extreme mental and emotional toll it takes on someone when they forced to blow someones brains out and watch another human being suffer and die right before their own very eyes.

    Saying something like it was justified, or that it had to be done, can help ease the burden, but that is never 100% true. There are other choices, decisions, and method that IF they were put into play could have prevent the situation from happening or at least resorting to deadly force.

    This whole thing will change soon anyway, when we switch to phasers complete with a stun setting.

    Until then,

    Live Long and Prosper

    Comment


      #17
      I agree wholeheartedly that the majority of self defense training is all about non-physical factors, at least as far as men are concerned. Men are unlikely to be assaulted unless they ask for it or are unwilling to back down due to pride. Women are a different matter though.

      Women are much more likely to be assaulted. When attacked the stakes are almost always going to be higher than that of many of the scuffles men get into in bars, etc. Women have to learn all the situational awareness and de-escalation things, but they also have to learn to fight off an attacker who, statistically speaking, is likely to be bigger and stronger than them.

      Having said all this it would seem that separate self defense classes for men & women would be the most efficient way to deal with the different needs of the two groups.



      Edited by - mr. manfredsengenten on May 12 2003 17:38:10

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        #18
        "He claims he can teach everything necessary for a person to physcially defend themselves in most situations in about two hours."

        This is a very important point. Will your instructor be able to tache these things in two hours? Maybe. But will the students actually be able to use them in a real life situation? I don't think so.

        In my experience, the greates enemy of someone attacked on the street is not bad fighting stance or incorrect punching technique - It's freezing up under stress.

        If an average soccer mom (and these are the people that tend to go to self defence seminars)spends two hours with your instructor and learns a proper fighting stance and strikes, that will have very little effect on how she will do whne she is attacked. At least that is my opinion.
        You say what about my rice?

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          #19
          "Women are much more likely to be assaulted. When attacked the stakes are almost always going to be higher than that of many of the scuffles men get into in bars, etc. Women have to learn all the situational awareness and de-escalation things, but they also have to learn to fight off an attacker who, statistically speaking, is likely to be bigger and stronger than them."

          This is exactly why most women will not be able to bare-handedly defend themselves if and when they are attacked, regardless of training.

          I can only name maybe one woman I know that would stand a chance in hell if I wanted to rape her. This is because I am faster, stronger, and more agressive. And it will take ***a lot*** of martial arts training to balance this out. That is why I am not trying to get my girlfriend to take a martial arts class - it won't do any good.
          You say what about my rice?

          Comment


            #20
            "In my experience, the greates enemy of someone attacked on the street is not bad fighting stance or incorrect punching technique - It's freezing up under stress."

            We are totally on the same page, and this is why those self-defense classes with those guys in the big puffy suits can actually do a lot of good.

            Real self-defense training isn't just physically and inteclleually intense, it is emotionally intense as well.

            When I assist teaching a self defense class and we are all done with teaching awareness, avoidance and compliance, after we are all done with learning the physcial movements, drilling them with partners, and hitting bags, the last part is put up or shut time. This is the realisic as possible role playing at the end that ties everything together.

            This involes someone like me going up to the student and engaging them, calling them the most obscene things I can think of, threating to do almost unspeakable horrible act to them and their family, even going as far pushing or slapping them. I continue applying the pressure until the situation is at a point of no return where some form of physically violent response is the only realistic option.

            If they get angry and agressive and reposnd in a way that actually escallates the situation, before that point of no return we let them know that they haven't learned their lesson, just as we tell someone who crumpled or froze under that pressure and couldn't sucessful act when that point was reached.

            This point of no return is a gray area, and doesn't necessary mean that they have to wait for me to throw the first punch, or as I said earlier isn't automatically achieve as soon I slap or push someone. This point of no return, is a mental construct inside the person being attacked and totally dependent on their percetion of the encounter and their mental state.

            If I am playing the role of the aggressor it is perfectlly fine for the person defending themself to hit me first as long as they are truly thinking "Oh shit, I'm in real danger. I have to do something to stop this from getting any worse, and I have to do it know" instead of "Who dies this asshole think he is. I'm going to teach him a lesson and shut him up". Just as it is perfectly fine for a guy to continue to try to difuse the situtation after taking a slap to the face if he feels he isn't in enough immediate danger to physically assert himself at that point.

            It is all about fear and self-preservation vs. anger and retrubution. In this way our self-defense classes can help both men and women, weak and strong willed.





            Edited by - Punisher on May 12 2003 18:08:47

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              #21
              "This involes someone like me going up to the student and engaging them, calling them the most obscene things I can think of, threating to do almost unspeakable horrible act to them and their family, even going as far pushing or slapping them."

              Yep, it does look like we're on the same page. It looks like youre doing the right things. I just don't think you can be effective given two hours. A few months... maybe... and that's for people, mostly men, that are strong enough and fit enough to be gin with.

              Most women would require a lot of training to be able to barehandedly defend themselves. At least in my opinion.
              You say what about my rice?

              Comment


                #22
                Hapk, I disagree about women taking self-defense classes for the same reason i think krav-magna isn't useless. Maybe what they learn will only work 5% of the time, but if that means they have a 5% higher likelyhood of surviving...
                That being said, non-martial methods work 2, like that one girl who pretended to enjoy it, saying stuff like "why do you get wemon like this when you could so easily get them normally," who the guy let go because he liked her.

                "I may not agree with what you have to say, but i'll fight you in a no holds barred fight to the death for your right to say it"

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                  #23
                  " 5% higher likelyhood of surviving "

                  Oh sure. I'm not saying don't do it - Martial Arts practie gives you a lot of benefits. But if your goal is self defence, I would go with a gun or maybe a knife.
                  You say what about my rice?

                  Comment


                    #24
                    "Yep, it does look like we're on the same page. It looks like youre doing the right things. I just don't think you can be effective given two hours. A few months... maybe... and that's for people, mostly men, that are strong enough and fit enough to be gin with."

                    All I can say is that we test them to the fullest of our and their ability and try to have them better off after walking out the door then they were coming in.

                    The amount of time given to the fighting over the other class elements is chosen to give the most benefit possible for time spent. The moves don't have to be done text-book perfect, just well enough to do the job. We keep things as simple and broad as possible. We only focus on three of four basic strikes, and try to equate them to physical movement people have done in other activities.

                    Like I said before, the most important part comes at the end. The only thing we can't really teach or give the student is that mental/emotional self-defense "it" factor, that allows them not think and just act when the shit hits the fan. We can demonstrate it, and we can talk about it, but we can't make someone actually do it if they don't have it in them.

                    I've instructed 100 lb women that I wouldn't want to mess with BEFORE we taught them the physcial skills we offer, simply becuase of their mental/emotional outlook on life. I've also instructed 300 lb men who would put themselves in extreme danger and get wasted in a real life encounter, either becuase they thought their size made them invincble or they just didn't have whatever it takes to "turn it on" when it really was necessary.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Sorry, I live in Texas. If someone smarts off to me, I have to fuck them up (part of the culture).
                      That probably explains the Iraq war better than anything else so far.

                      --------
                      El Guapo says, ""You can buy muscles, but you can't buy COJONES!"
                      --------
                      The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
                      - Pizdoff

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                        #26
                        heh

                        Saddam got Bushwacked!
                        well he deserved it...
                        yet the facet of truth glimmers brightly! (i'm a poet of sorts)


                        Punisher-Much better.
                        Hapko3-stop double posting! you can delete your reply!

                        Punisher-" Even police officers and professional soliders are often not fully prepared for the extreme mental and emotional toll it takes on someone when they forced to blow someones brains out and watch another human being suffer and die right before their own very eyes."
                        According to studies done by an ex-general or officer of some sort from America, less than half of the soldiers fired at or aimed to kill another human being in WW1 and WW2.....

                        You can find more info on that somewhere, probably more accurate, i'm just speaking from memory.
                        That's why the "modern" military does so many drills and target shooting and live fire exercises to desensitize and acclimitize the soldiers so that it becomes "almost" second nature in a situation.

                        The same for "self-defense" and martial arts and fighting.


                        --
                        Hard work, Patience, Dedication.
                        (And my two creaky knees...)
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                          #27
                          Does somebody want to define the differences between self defence and fighting?
                          Self defence equals pre-emptive striking? Otherwise surely you are fighting.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Ok, well .. something that only works 5% of the time may get you into more trouble than doing something normal. I mean, lets say a girl just wanted to run but some SD instructor told her to use a palm thrust to the nose and it would kill him. She does it and he grabs her and beats her up when she might have gotten away otherwise.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              "Does somebody want to define the differences between self defence and fighting?"

                              It totally depends on who the aggressor is and if what you are chosing to do is meant to escalate the encounter or exstinguish it.

                              Self-defense and fighting have very little in common, they are too separate things that can exsit totally indepentent of each other.

                              You can defend yourself without fighting and you can fight in a manner that is not in accordance with the definition of self-defense.

                              Like I mentioned before, it is basically all about your mental mindset and the extent of your actions. If your mind is filled anger and thoughts of payback, your probably not defending yourself and if you keep attacking and causing for damage long after you really have too your definitely not.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                "SD sadly relys on a one-(fill in the blank)-one-kill mentality much of the time. That shit'll get you raped."

                                Good training doesn't. If you are forced to fight, we teach that you keep attacking until there is no more threat. This doesn't mean beating the guy to death, in fact just the opposite, but you going until there is a chance to escape or the guy stop actively resisting you. We make no claims on when that will be.

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