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    Group vs. group, rumbles

    Does anyone here have experience with, or strategies for, group vs. group fights? The kind where grappling is a diminished option and running means leaving your friends behind.

    I think it's an area of fighting that merits at least some research and thought; of course everyone seeks to be able to defend themselves, but what about others as well, who may or may not be able to defend themselves with as much skill?
    "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."

    #2
    i agree, that is an area that is rarely considered. a saw a drill somewhere that is a bodyguard training method. you have to protect a 'target' against one or more attackers. the main idea is that you are not the main target, and allows you to act as 'jammer' or 'interceptor'. if they switch their attack to you so much the better, unless one of them gets past you to the target.

    bouncer teams in bars probably deal with this scenario periodically.

    interesting post.

    peace.

    Comment


      #3
      bouncer teams in bars probably deal with this scenario periodically
      Yep.

      Some of the things we consider as a group when we compete in events in different cities are group tactics and expedient egress. It's a worthwhile exercise since the payouts and after-fight parties most often take place at the promoter's favorite nightclub.

      A couple of my training partners and I have some experience with bouncing so we also understand the dynamics of 'the melee' from an active observer's PoV.

      Comment


        #4
        "bouncer teams in bars probably deal with this scenario periodically."

        Qualified "yep" from me. I've been in a few situations (a fairly long time ago now) where I was in a group of bouncers who had to take care of group fights. (And a couple of times when our members were prime targets.)

        It's not like we ever trained for it, but because we were stationed around the bar and had to know how to react to a group scene we had a few standards. Probably the most applicable to non-doormen, although we never set it out as a rule, is that you always took the back of the guy who'd gotten there just before you (because we were stationed around the bar we often arrived on the scene one by one, although pretty quickly one after the other).

        It should go without saying, too, that you want to make sure you have backup *before* anything happens. (Not always possible, though.)



        Edited by - noodles on April 25 2003 02:18:10

        Comment


          #5
          This thread rocks.

          We used to do scenario training (role playing) drills like this a lot. My suggestions are:

          1. In wrestling there is a position on the ground called the "turtle" or the bottom position. Your shoulders are raised and your head is tucked between them. Standing up, this requires you to have your arms raised, leaving your ribs somewhat open (keeping one arm lower than the other will help with that) but getting a shot in the ribs from out of nowhere is slightly better than getting blasted in the head from out of nowhere.

          Crouch a little and you have a decent shield when you are in the thick of things. (I don't mean the CTF or DRD or whatever shield. I mean an open shield with your arms reaching out, grabbing and parrying) In other words, PROTECT YA NECK .. and your jaw and temple.

          2. Never leave your wingman. If they get beat down because you left them, then you will be facing more guys by yourself.

          3. Use your peripheral vision. Focus nowhere in particular or on an arbitrary point, but don't really focus on what you are looking at. Instead catch everything else. Look for motion. Once something in your peripheral vision moves then you will notice it and direct your attention to it. This takes time to learn. It's hard to explain. Also, shift that arbitrary point around. Skip your focal point around and you can take different directions in with your half-focussed panoramic motion detector glances.

          You are sacrificing clarity for scope, then once something is moving you divert your attention to it. Bruce Lee did this somewhat. A lot of predators do it.

          4. Push one guy into one another, that occupies at least two people. A good shove can be valuable.

          5. Use people as obstacles, hit one and step so he is between you and another guy, hit him again, go after the other guy. Duck behind someone here and there. Standing next to your friend can help this way too.

          6. There are only so many directions of attack, if there are forty guys .. still, only about 5 or 6 of them can touch you (in a way that will matter) at the same time. You are never really fighting more than 5 or 6 guys at once. Not that this helps .. but just remember, not everyone can reach you. Concentrate on the ones who can and concentrate on dwindling that number down by using the terrain and ducking behind people.

          7. Some good places to go: doorways, narrow halls, .. sometimes a corner. You want a way to escape but if it's a choice between getting beat down in the middle of the room or closing off all rear attacks by going into a corner I might take the corner or wall for a while. I'd rather get a hall where I can retreat. An aisle can be like a hall between the tables.

          8. Low kicks can keep people back. When people are drawing back from a low attack they tend to straighten out their legs and that gives you distance. Managing distance is important. Low attacks that connect also usually create distance.

          9. Fake slow and strike fast. People need to see a fake or a warning shot if it is going to scare them back.

          10. Grab somebody and engage. When you are in an exchange with one guy then you are a moving target to the rest of them.

          * Also, if you fail to take the battle to the enemy when you are surrounded, then you are going to lose.

          * Devide their lines of defense, seperate them from their wingmen. Use battlefield strategy. Move your troops in behind them, flank them.

          * If you don't have any kind of a plan then take it upon yourself to see where the other guy is going and try to come in from another front, like behind the guy, off to the side. a war on two fronts is difficult. Surround them.

          * Also, always leave good tips so the bar tender will point the shotgun at the other guy. :P

          Comment


            #6
            Excellent posts, guys.

            9chambers, that's a very thorough and concise outline. We have the same details in our training and I concur almost point for point.

            What you wrote for #1 is what we just call 'rounding the back and finding their feet'.

            2. in our group tactics, I want my second in my left-rear corner.

            3. You broached something very important here. There are all kinds of shadows overlappng and disappearing with the light-show which can create a lot of conflicting visual cues. You can't really discern the rhythm or fine depth when things are moving quickly. We call it 'pattern disruption'.

            4. pushing and palm striking are both gross motor actions. keeps things simple.

            5, 6, and 7 are all excellent positional strategies.

            8. the go-to tactic when in doubt. Good point of entry to what you allude to in reagrd to range-management as well.

            9. we call it the 'scale effect'. It involves pattern disruption and messes with the other person's timing and reflexes.

            10. the human sheild.


            good stuff...



            Edited by - Shooter on April 25 2003 06:23:12

            Comment


              #7
              You can practice Aikido randori which deals with this very situation: using people as shields, pushing them into eachother, avoiding blows, getting into better possitions etc..




              Edited by - Michael Neal on April 25 2003 15:46:42

              Comment


                #8
                interesting thread, good posts

                "10. Grab somebody and engage. When you are in an exchange with one guy then you are a moving target to the rest of them"

                And you use the person as a shield. Blocking a larger percentage of your availible target.



                I'd suggest, sweep someone down or get a knockdown cleanly.
                This creates a barrier in front of any guys behind this fallen guy. And it is hard to fight a standing guy on your back....STOMP!!!

                --
                Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

                http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
                Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.
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                  #9
                  I have been in several multi person brawls (one of which I started) I've alway used the strategy "fuck up the leader and the rest will follow." I've gotten away the better of all the skirmishes.

                  On the more realistic side though, none of the situations had everybody rush me at once. It usually happened one then the other.

                  Go away I'm talking to myself

                  Comment


                    #10
                    i agree Omega....coordination is hard

                    my only group fight (like 8 on me? no embellishment) they kinda attacked me one by one (wait......so movies are realistic? hmmm...(well these guys were stupid))
                    no one person really took "command" and attacked.

                    --
                    Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

                    http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
                    Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.
                    Surfing Facebook at work? Spread the good word by adding us on Facebook today! https://www.facebook.com/Bullshido

                    https://www.instagram.com/bullshido/

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                      #11
                      My own experiences are the same as what PizDoff and Omega described.

                      The few times I've been involved with more than one person against just me had one guy moving in and the others waiting for something decisive to happen before they took their cue.

                      In one incident I targeted one of them and drew him out with some verbal exchange...kinda singled him out to bring him in alone. I gripped him and danced him around until he was so exhausted he slumped to the ground and puked on himself. No hitting was involved and all 3 of them were fairly drunk. The other 2 didn't jump in because there was no decided 'winner' or 'loser'. I kept the guy between myself and at least one of the other 2 the whole time and stayed ready to break off and deal with whomever entered the operable range of my elbows and low-line kicks.

                      The other instances were so chaotic that I didn't really recall much afterward. All I'm sure of is that I just kept hitting whoever was in my space. In one melee, I had a table behind me and kept the 'half-step rule' I learned from my boxing years earlier. The half-step rule was the only thing I remember thinking at one point and it kept me from getting backed up into the table and losing balance.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        :)

                        That many on me was the most fun I had in a while. Maybe I could get some guys at my gym to do that to me again.

                        "I gripped him and danced him around until he was so exhausted he slumped to the ground and puked on himself."
                        you dance hardcore!


                        Haha, I just saw some footage of MLB baseball fights, the target runs backwards in a creasent circle type thing with other men in tights flailing about.....lol, a lot of slapping and no power hits...

                        --
                        Hard work, Patience, Dedication.

                        http://www.thaing.net/technique.htm
                        Thanks to Blade Windu for link. Click on link and wait for codec install prompt. Then install and watch. Nasty fights.
                        Surfing Facebook at work? Spread the good word by adding us on Facebook today! https://www.facebook.com/Bullshido

                        https://www.instagram.com/bullshido/

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The kind of rumbles I'd most likely end up in, though thankfully haven't yet, are me + a few friends vs. greater number of guys (who have beef with my friends). Cases like this, it'd probably be easy enough to pick out the "leader" -- the guy who speaks first to get our group's attention, most likely.

                          Something else I thought about, though, is how mass fights tend not to start out "mass" -- it starts one vs. one, then escalates. I think there's probably something to be said about how best to transition from one on one to group vs. group, i.e. avoiding getting rushed by his backups, making sure your own get involved, knowing when to jump in, etc.
                          "The morning glory blooms for an hour. It differs not at heart from the giant pine, which lives for a thousand years."

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Thanks Shooter.

                            * As long as you are a moving target its hard for two people to get a good shot at you at the same, particularly if you are engaged with one attacker. Especially if they are standing in a group on one side of you and not all around you yet. They might not even be able to reach you because of their friend. He is a human shield, like you said. I agree.

                            I think people tend to let the first guy attack, and act as support because they are afraid of getting in the way and getting hit themselves. The first attacker is thrashing about and not looking behind him. They don't want to knock heads or get elbowed by mistake. They want a clear shot. Also, they may not want to steal his thunder if it's emotional.

                            If you give his friends a good opening then they will grab or tackle you though. They can do that without messing up the first guy's attack. You have to keep them at a distance. Try to duck out of the circle as soon as you can if they are all around you. (Guerrilla warfare. Attack, evade, attack) Get them all on one side of you. Run a few steps if it will do it, then attack .. then lead them into one another.. attack.

                            >the target runs backwards in a creasent circle type thing

                            That's good way to "lead them" into one another. When you run back, then to the side, you first get them coming from one direction and then you herd them closer together.

                            >I had a table behind me and kept
                            >the 'half-step rule' I learned from
                            >my boxing years earlier.

                            That's a really good rule. You don't want to be right up against the wall. Just use it as an obstacle. I agree. It sucks to get pinned to a wall or shoved into it hard.


                            Mercurius,

                            The transition from one-on-one to group-on-group; I think it usually happens the moment the others see the a clear task. If their main guy isn't doing so hot or if they have a clear shot at you or if they have your back so they can grab or tackle you then they will come in fast.


                            Edited by - 9chambers on April 26 2003 05:04:50

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                              #15
                              what I learned so far:

                              a) grab but keep from getting grabbed.

                              b) stay on your feet. DO NOT shoot or get brought to the ground.

                              c) watch hands and look out for weapons, improvised or otherwise.

                              d)if you have a weapon on you, like a knife, get ready to use it if someone else uses one as well.

                              e) strike to stun, but don't keep pounding someone until he drops. Don't focuse too long on one opponent. Instead, hit and move on to hitting someone else.

                              f) fight dirty. Grab hair and strike, etc.

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