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Sycophantic testimonials in MA Marketing1: Stephen Oliver

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    Sycophantic testimonials in MA Marketing1: Stephen Oliver

    Case study of sycophantic testimonials 1

    Stephen Oliver makes a business out of telling other people how to make more money out of instructing martial arts. His main sites are and and & NAPMA

    A regular contributor of testimonials to Oliver is John Graden:
    Long recognized as one of the sharpest marketers in the industry!

    John Graden
    Founder, NAPMA
    [email protected]
    (quoted twice because it appears at least twice on different related pages).

    NAPMA it turns out stands for National Association For Professional Martial A,0,0,...796,0,0,0.htmlA closer look at the NAPMA squared programs reveals that Oliver is not the only person involved:
    1. The Teleconference Raw Set of 5 CD's (including contributions from Jeff Smith, Joe Corley, Chris Rappold, Tommy Lee, Will Maier and Terry Brumley)
    Ok, so how many of those by some strange coincidence also give Oliver testimonials for his other products?

    Jeff Smith
    Joe Corely
    After that Commissioner Kerik escorted Master Oliver, Master Smith, and Master Joe Corley on a VIP tour of Yankee stadium where they enjoyed a game at home plate.
    Tommy Lee Terry BrumleyOliver & Jeff Smith
    More recently I was promoted to 7 th Degree Black Belt by Jeff Smith.
    You are a total Douchbag. Train more, post nevermore.
    FickleFingerOfFate -08-21-2007 08:59 AM

    just die already.
    Plasma - 08-20-2007 11:45 PM

    Best MA website ever!!!!!:

    Interesting post.

    Was there a point to this?

    We have 100's of pages of positive feedback from student regarding Mile High Karate and from Instructors regarding Extraordinary Marketing, NAPMA Squared, and the Coaching Program - all of which I authored/developed/ or run. See:

    RE my resume. My Martial Arts Background is with Jhoon Rhee - therefore Jeff Smith, John Chung, Charlie Lee, Larry Carnahan, Pat Worley, John Worley, etc., etc., etc. My Martial Arts Business Background includes EFC - Nick Cokinos & Ned Muffly, and current associations certainly include NAPMA (ie NAPMA Squared) therefore formerly John Graden - now Rob Colasanti.

    Again, I ask - was there a point to this?

    Stephen Oliver.
    Founder: Mile High Karate
    [email protected]


      I think the point is that given that you do business with the people who provide those recommendations so obviously there is a bias in your favor.

      But since your here I'm curious, is there any other large management companies besides NAPMA in the market? Do they have substantially different business practices and recommendations?

      Do you disagree with any of the NAPMA recommendations for running a school for any reason?

      Why was John Graden forced out of running NAPMA in 2003?

      If I was starting a new martial arts school who should I go to for advice and why? Graden or Rob Colasanti?


        Originally posted by StephenOliver

        Again, I ask - was there a point to this?

        Stephen Oliver.
        Founder: Mile High Karate
        [email protected]

        Do you see nothing wrong with providing testimonials for a service you help provide , especially considering a number of the testimonials did not openly disclose their involvement ?
        I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
        BILL HICKS,

        "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past."
        ---Jean-Paul Sartre


          The difference between ethics and strikes me as unethical to gather testimonials from those who have a stake in the success of the venture.
          "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
          - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"


   & by Andrew Woods.

            My Coaching Program: www.MartialArts-Mastermind.com
  [email protected]
            Added $300,000 to school's revenue in the 12 months following attendance of first bootcamp!

            Attention Martial Artist

            "Discover How To Double, Triple or even quadruple your INCOME with One Simple Program that could make you a Martial Arts Millionaire"

            I've read headlines like this all of the time from people promising to teach the secrets to making lots of money and how to get tons of students into your martial arts school.

            Well after researching most of them, none of them where what they said they were, except one.

            Master Oliver, let me say that this is my headline in describing your "Extraordinary Marketing Course". As you know I discovered this course while on travel in Brazil almost two years ago and the
            rest is history.

            I could talk for days about how your program has changed my business. But let me talk about this last event that I attended. Just when I thought I had an idea what was going on, I came to this Bootcamp and the information that I received was priceless.

            At the bootcamp I felt like was in some type of secret organization that is revealing the secrets of success only to a chosen few. I mean I literally sat at a table with 5-7 Martial Artist that had been running schools for twenty to thirty years and were all

            They openly talked about what it takes to make millions with a Martial Arts School, how to do it, what to do and basically laid everything out for you to do. Where on earth are you going to get that?

            Yeah, anyone can go to these conventions and hear speakers talk for their 30-60 minute slot, then go to another room and hear a different speaker talk.

            There isn't a platform that I know of in the Martial Arts Industry that is open to the public that allows the type of up close and personal networking that the Extraordinary Bootcamp offers and I thank you for that. Twenty plus hours of "up in your face" proven systems and training.

            There are only two reasons I think a person shouldn't attend the Bootcamp: one... You are already making millions of dollars with your Martial Arts School and you think you know everything and two... You are getting ready to get out of the Martial Arts Business.

            Other than that, everyone needs to be continuously learning and networking with us. Yes I've achieved GREAT success with your course, Yes I want everyone to attend your course, Yes I will support EVERYTHING you do but that is only because what you are
            doing works. If it wasn't working, I would be off to the next guy claiming to have the secrets and would've asked for a refund two years ago.

            Many people say they can't afford it. Like I told my friend Joe Priole "If you can't afford to go, you can't afford not to go". Well after a year of trying to get him to go, he finally went and is already sign up for the next one.

            I have another Friend named Melinga Scott who told me he couldn't afford it and I actually begged him to go. I told him that if he needed to get a loan, have a fundraiser at his school or stand at the gas station and pump gas for money he needed to be at the
            Bootcamp, to just do it.

            I'm not kidding. Just like many others he didn't listen and after sharing some more things I learned at this past bootcamp, he now regrets it.

            I just got a call from him the other day and he said no matter what, he would be at the next one.

            The price is a drop in the bucket compared to the value you get from the course. If you didn't cover any of the material and only set this up as a chance for us to network with the top minds in the industry it would be well worth it.

            I have a saying that "If you hang around nine broke business owners your bound to be the tenth". I used to have round table discussions regularly with school owners that weren't successful yet and we used to talk about what we thought would work and what wouldn't

            No more, I was out of my mind. Now it's funny because the exact same thing they told me wouldn't work in my area, now is. What you have put together with this program is simply amazing and I would be willing to say that if anyone would just try it and implement the concepts, there is no way you wouldn't succeed. Thanks and I look forward to the next one.

            Master Lloyd Irvin Jr.
            Lloyd Irvin's Martial Arts Academy

            Master Oliver,

            I just wanted to drop you another note regarding your bootcamp.

            I thought you put on a fantastic event. Not only was in educational and motivating, it was truly inspiring having such a successful group of individuals in the same room.

            I appreciate the opportunity to have been a speaker for MAIA. As for the school owner in me (five schools as you know) the knowledge was priceless.

            Frank Silverman
            MIAI and MA Success

            Master Oliver,

            I wanted to take sometime to thank you for the Bootcamp in Boulder.

            When my schedule became open for the weekend of the Bootcamp and I first decided to go I had already booked a trip to Brazil two days after the Bootcamp. Initially, I had thought this would be a bad combo but it has become a blessing, somewhat of a gestation

            If we were to try to implement all the things we learned and make the changes we needed at our school two days after we would never have been able to accomplish it. I took the time to map out everything I need to fix and have setup meetings with all of my staff. I have a map now and can clearly see the path and I want to thank you and the others speakers for that.

            "I often hear people say wow you own your own business that's awesome!" It is for sure "awesome," but there is a huge amount of responsibility that comes with it making every single decision can become taxing. Your Bootcamp offered a group of mentors that had been there and done it, more importantly with great success.

            I want to hear ideas and concepts that others are using and are having success with and your Bootcamp more than provided us with that. All of the speakers seemed eager to push and motivate us to greater success and I again want to thank you for that.

            I have a lot more work to do, so in closing, I would like to say what I heard that really persuaded me to go. When I heard the cost of the seminar I said I cant afford to go to that, then Lloyd said if you can't afford to go, you can't afford not to go.

            Well, the day before the Bootcamp started, I visited two of your schools and you staff was helpful enough to give me ideas that have paid for the seminar already and I am still in Brazil!

            If you get one student because of the Bootcamp it pays for itself! If my calculations are correct we will make somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 times the cost of the Bootcamp as a direct result of the Bootcamp before the next one in October!

            Thanks again see you in September,

            Joe Priole
            Champion Martial Arts Center
            [email protected]

            Dear Steve,

            I want to thank you for a wonderful weekend. I got some great ideas and it was a real treat to meet so many special people all at the same venue. I have purchased a lot of materials over the years from Master Clark, Jeff Smith, Tim Kovar, Tommy Lee, NAPMA, MAIA etc. It was fun to get to actually meet some of the folks that have contributed to my success. Thank you for bringing them all together in one place!

            I also just wanted to let you know how welcome I felt and appreciated the fact that you were so open with information. It has been a long time since we have spent time together, but you really made me feel welcome. As you have said to me a couple of times, "we need to figure out some ways we can work together". I am very interested in how we might do this. This past weekend was a great start to rekindling an old friendship.

            May I also take this opportunity to share a heart felt thank you. For years I have wanted to express my appreciation to you for helping me to get started in this industry and to have a big vision in terms of my martial arts career. From that short time I worked for you and from watching your success over the years, I was inspired to see what was possible.

            With the new business information I received from this weekend I have even more to offer my hosts in addition to my martial arts seminars. With all this added information, I am looking forward to more growth in my various businesses and the opportunity to make a difference in even more people's lives.

            It was that short time in your employment and the encouragement of a few special people along the way that gave me this vision and got me out of the recreation centers and eventually into not only owning schools, an international organization, but also now real estate as well.

            So although we have had little contact over the last 18 years as you can see you have had a huge influence on my life. The boot camp was a neat time to see how you are continuing to grow and the wonderful circle of quality people you have surrounded yourself with.

            May you continue to realize great success and to inspire others as you have inspired me. I look forward to building our friendship. "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Thanks for some sharpening!

            Let's try and get together soon.


            Robert Austin
            International Black Belt Academy
            United Martial Arts Alliance

            Dear Stephen:

            I attended your last bootcamp somewhat skeptical but willing to learn. I came away with a whole new understanding on upgrading students into bigger, better more profitable programs.

            Bill Clark, Joe Corley and Jeff Smith seem to have put together and are working a system that seems incredibly simple and productive. They shinned a new light on rotating curriculum as well.

            I'd hear this theory presented years ago but no one I knew was doing it successfully. At the bootcamp there were at least 5 owners operating over 35 schools that had implemented a rotating curriculum with overwhelming success.

            I'm always interested in what Tim and Dave Kovar are doing with their children's classes. Ever since they introduced the "Concepts of the Belt" years ago they've been leaps and bounds ahead of the pack in children's curriculum.

            Then there was the networking.

            This was awesome!

            So many ideas, new technologies, new systems it boggles the mind. I took 16 pages of notes on my laptop, and when you made us circle for Bill Clark's presentation I took another 5 pages on my PDA.

            There are many consulting and billing companies that have great information for new martial arts school owners or for smaller schools.

            There are very few that offer that information and legitimate, working programs and systems for larger schools and/or older schools that have been employing the basics and other martial arts business practices they've picked up throughout the years.

            I got much more in than I expected.

            I feel it was well worth the time, effort and expense.

            I've already registered for the next bootcamp and am looking forward to the growth I'll be experiencing between now and then.

            William "Scott" Kifer
            8th Degree Black Belt
            President of USA Karate, Inc.
            511 S. Schmale Road, Carol Stream, IL 60187
            Phone: 630/665-8322 Fax: 630/665-6831
            E-mail: [email protected]

            Master Oliver,

            This weekends bootcamp, Jan 30th - Feb 2nd 2003, was awesome.

            The line up of speakers you had present were not only some of the top operators in the country, they were very informative and explained their expertise without holding anything back.....

            Please personally thank each one of them for me the next time you speak with them. I also want you to know that I was honored to be among the list of speakers and was impressed with the quality of attendees at this boot-camp.

            I advise anyone thinking about attending one of these boot-camps to definitely do so. Think about the top school operators speaking, and attending.

            If operators like the above attend these events it should be a no-brainer for the average school owner to attend. Personally, the highlight of this boot-camp for me was two areas.

            1) Networking with some of the Top School Operators in the country.

            2) The knowledge of Upgrading Memberships.

            I found the Upgrading Memberships section of the boot-camp to be some of the best, if not the BEST, information I have learned in the last 5 years.

            Each speaker contributed to this area in their own way.

            I personally don't need help on asking for money and closing people on upgrading memberships, but the material on making the upgrades worth $5,000 and $7,000 on the same 3 year membership was mind-boggling. These ideas alone will double my gross next year. Probably the most important thing also covered was why and how each operator could ask for the $5,000 and $8,000.

            I know that I need to create the foundation of legendary service, make sure we do even a better job giving what we promise and develop a ITP (instructor training program) that is second to none.

            Once I do this, I will implement the new pricing structure.

            Once again I want to point out that the above Master Instructors gave all their secretes unselfishly so school owners would be able to improve their program and better their bottom line.

            I would personally recommend this boot-camp to anyone and everyone interested. I'm so impressed with your program that you may give out my number if anyone needs a testimonial to make them come to your next event. My number is 443-871-2724.

            Tommy Lee
            East Coast Martial Arts
            SBSS Success Systems

            Inside Stephen Oliver's Martial Arts Marketing Bootcamp
            By Hersh Sandhoo, Webmation President and CEO

            I recently spoke on the topic of using the Internet to increase a school's revenue at Stephen Oliver's Martial Arts Marketing Bootcamp in Boulder, CO. Being actively involved in the martial arts for over 13 years, running a school for my master while in
            college, and interacting with school owners on a daily basis, I can say with sincerity that it is a must attend event for any serious school owner.

            While all the speakers were great, Master Bill Clark's renewal and upsell overview was an eye opener, showing you step by step how to gross over $40,000.00 a month from just 150-200 students. On a side note: one of my clients, who follows Master Clark's concept was telling me how they used to have 450 students and now with 190 students they gross twice as much as they used to each month (now over $50,000!) doing half the work. He is busy preparing to build his second location.

            The rest of the bootcamp was just as informative with topics including staff development, psychology of selling (especially in regards to people's temperament), marketing tips, upsells, cash outs, tuition billing, afterschool programs, and much more. On both Friday and Saturday the discussions ran from 10:00 A.M. until 2 A.M.!

            Master Oliver's bootcamp was also very personal in nature and attendees were able to network with some of the most successful school owners and business leaders in the industry. For example, school owners with small one location schools were able to interact and get advice from those with as many as 15 locations.

            What also struck me was Stephen's desire to truly help the school owners who attended. He went the extra step to help people formulate clear action steps to take on their return home and to focus on what was most important for their particular school. If you haven't attended at least once you are missing out on a wealth of information.

            He is planning to have another bootcamp this October 24th & 25th in Breckenridge, Colorado. I highly recommend that you try to attend. You can obtain more information on his web site:

            Conversations from February 1st, 2003 Bootcamp:
            (Transcribed from the enclosed Audio Tape)
            Stephen: And Stephen Oliver. I can't tell you how exciting it is to have a brain trust like this. Let's take a look at this for a second. We have a $5-million operation in Jacksonville, Florida, $4-million operation in Orlando. We have Master Jeff Smith, who's been running one of the highest-grossing schools in the country for over 25 years, consistently, every month, every year, ad nauseum. Such high numbers so consistently, it gets tiring to hear about them.
            So forever, we have just incredible talent that's been shared with us so far. And I know the challenge with that is this: there's so much good stuff that's been thrown at you, and I think it links pretty tightly. But my mission for the two or three hours is to pull it all together and make sure that you have a step one, step two, step three action plan, that's actionable in the daytime or by tomorrow morning and implemented, if not tomorrow by cell phone, Monday morning in actual implementation. Because if you don't do something Monday, you're not ever going to do anything anytime.
            Does that make sense?
            Now, I brought these gentlemen up here because they have each been at two of our events; in Frisco, in Frisco, in Frisco, in Frisco, in Breckenridge, in Breckinridge, in Breckinridge and in Breckinridge.
            I want to expand on something. And, again, I complemented Lloyd and Terry Brumley quite a bit, but Lloyd is the most aggressive, immediate implementer that I have yet to come across. What I feel like emotionally is that I keep coming up with what I think are pretty damned good ideas, and then Lloyd goes and makes money on them before we implement them in our schools. Or implements them even more effectively and more aggressively than we've done in-house. And I'd like Lloyd to speak to: one, what he does that's unique, so that you can have the 300,000 improvement in the next 12 months that he had in the last 12 months. Would you give them some ideas on how to do that?
            Lloyd: It's about who you're circling yourself around. Every martial arts school owner that I was around was not successful. So all the ideas that we were talking about together in our own inner circle were no good. If you hang around nine broke people, you're bound to be the tenth.
            Stephen: Networking with people who don't have a clue. A bad thing.
            Lloyd: These were people I looked up to, because they had martial arts schools for five, ten, 20 years and I'm just starting in the game. Everyone month, seeing how people's monthly checks were horrible. The worst I ever heard was Master Oliver say, "Any idiot could make $20,000 a month in his martial arts school, but to take it to the next level, to go $20,000, $30,000, $40,000, $50,000, $60,000." At first, those numbers were completely foreign to me. I didn't think they could be really done until I started doing them.
            Stephen: Did I say, "Any idiot?"
            Lloyd: Any idiot. It was reality. It made me just sick and tired of being sick and tired, of having that on my books and reading, "That's a good idea," set it to the side. The next one, that one was gone, "That's a good idea." And over and over and over, for almost two years in my business I did that. And then the next thing you know, I have stacks of ___ books, I'm watching this video. They're all good ideas, but I'm not hitting with any of them. And when I got sick and tired of being sick and tired, I said, "Listen, it's time to start implementing some of these techniques, just like I do in my martial arts.
            I received my black belt in jujitsu in three and a half years. Only like two people in the country have ever had a black belt that quick. So I'm like, "How could I get this good at martial arts this fast? It takes ten years to get a black belt."
            I loved jujitsu, and I was doing jujitsu. I was doing some of it. I was practicing every day. Now it's time to put that energy into my business. If you treat your business like a hobby, it will pay like a hobby. If you treat your business like a business, it will pay like a business.
            After that, I just got Extraordinary Marketing, ___ Brazil, training for the world championship. I sat there and read it. I stopped training. I was getting ready to beat the world champion. I stopped training. I was reading them. I was like, "Man, the things I wished I did when I was 22 smacked me in my face. Smacked me in my face.
            Even at this time, I was still making $20,000 or $30,000 a month. But that was just from luck, getting after-school programs, martial arts programs and stuff. So it smacked me in my face.
            After that, when I got home from Brazil, I started calling people in Brazil and saying, "Listen, we need to go from $69 to $99." They're like, "Lloyd, we're not going to do this! It's this and it's that." I'm like, "$99." My martial arts program went from $85 up to $119.
            Then, when I got back, I went up to $139. I had it on my side to start taking action. My first action plan was to get the perceived value. I went to the shop and started shooting videos and making videos, so I could do an interview process. When kids come in, my instructors role-play with my employees. The kid comes in, and within 10 seconds come up and give him a high-five, know people's names who are coming in. We have balloons, now, people can take home. For the kids at martial arts schools, in their bedroom, that night when they leave, we take pictures.
            We're implementing the systems, putting systems in place. I'm just obsessed with it, just like I worked on getting my black belt in Brazilian jujitsu. I said, "Listen, how come people make $50,000, $60,000, $100,000 a month and I'm sitting here failing?"
            So from that point on, I'm not going to read anything and think it's a good idea and not dive into it.
            I dive into it. I had my first, second and third play, and I don't move until the fourth, fifth, or until I knock this off my task, then I go to the next one. Every day, I've gotten really organized, two hours a day, two-hour blocks, two hours I'm going to work on my lead generation ads, two hours I'm going to work on direct mail, copy, stuff that may take six months. But I have to do two hours a day.
            Where before, I'd think about it for a whole day, every day, but never put one single thing in place.
            So, for me, like I said, they call me a master implementer because that's all I'm doing. Everyone knows what ideas are good. You think you want to start an after-school program, just do it. You think you want to write a lead generation ad, you need to learn how to write copy, learn about headlines and copy and start testing things.
            Everyone can't jump, take 100 steps. But like I was saying earlier, at the top of the hill is your goal. You either move towards your goal or you move away from your goal. And each and every day, you have to try and improve by a minimum of 1% each and every day. As long as you do a minimum of 1%, you move towards your goal.
            If you come in and one day don't improve some area of your life, your relationship, ___, something with a minimum of 1%, you're going away. And every day before I got hit in the head, I was sliding back. I was practicing jujitsu everyday, but I was sliding back. All my jujitsu friends said, "Oh, you're good, but you're broke." They tell me to go work for them. I've never had a job before. I decided to go into the martial arts business, something I love to death. I would do it whether I'm paying somebody else to do it or I'm doing it myself. I figured I would rather do it myself, make the money for it, because it can provide a living and you can still train in something that you love.
            For me, it's about implementing. Like today, I called my staff. I already have things that are being put into place as we speak. I've been typing, I've been working with lead generation ads and things from Master Clark, Mr. Von Schmelling. My head's spinning and I can't wait until I get home and just dive into this stuff.
            I know for a fact that some of the stuff I'm going to put in place, the income can be unlimited. I want to make $5-million from this huddle. Anybody can do it, but you have to be dead serious, have a crystal clear goal to begin with the end in mind, and make your dream come true.
            Stephen: One more question. You did a $300,000 improvement in revenue this last year, which is just phenomenal.
            Now, why would you come back to Colorado again and go through all this craziness again?
            Lloyd: Because, to tell you the truth, when I purchased the Extraordinary Marketing course, when I was in Brazil two years ago...
            Stephen: About 18 months.
            Lloyd: About 18 months ago, I'm still learning stuff from that course. He said this will take me about three years to learn how to write copy. So probably 18 months now.
            Stephen: I wasn't counting on it being you.
            Lloyd: I'm very pleased. A quick story. With my summer camp, I wrote a direct response letter that generated $80,000 of pre-sale in the first 30 days, for my summer camp. I sent it to Master Brumley. Master Brumley used the letter and he's like, "Damn, this is great. I attached one of those dollars to it as an attention-getter, and it worked!" I was ecstatic.
            And it wasn't even a good letter, to tell you the truth. But I had everything just work and study and study and study and study.
            Attendee: That was a good letter. I sent out 2,000 copies of that.
            Stephen: It worked? Good, bad, and everything worked.
            Attendee: I changed the headline. I said, "When is a penny worth $25?"
            Stephen: Yeah. That's something you need to get new dollar bills. The one I got had been crumbled up, that had been in his pocket for 1,000 days.
            Lloyd: For me, it's just about getting the knowledge. Like I said, hang around nine people, you're bound to be the tenth. You've got people around here that are millionaires. So if you can get 10% or 5% of that, you're going to move 1% towards your goal.
            Stephen: I, personally, have been going to four or five, and even six or seven things like this, if I can find them. There's three or four in the martial arts industry, so I have to look outside the industry.
            But how valuable has it been for me to hang out and have dinner with Master Smith, Master ___, Master Von Schmelling, and all of the other great people that we have here. I've gotten a heck of a lot more out of the weekend than probably any of the participants just by the association. You oftentimes learn more over iced tea and appetizers than any other place.
            So it's creating those networking relationships. Fantastic.
            Hand the mike to Mr. Brumley, if you don't mind.
            Mr. Brumley: The very first boot camp we had, Lloyd said probably three words the whole time, the whole weekend. I was just assured ___. Gave him a big back section of the corner and he never said a word. He wrote, he kind of distanced himself from everybody.
            The dedication that he had, we had a conference call with Mile High Karate, who advised us to do it. And Lloyd got in on the call, which doesn't seem like a big deal except Lloyd was in the hospital when that call was going on. And in the hospital bed, he's going through the call.
            Stephen: Writing copy.

            Mr. Brumley: Yeah, I'm sure. So the dedication that this guy has, and in the last three boot camps, if you would have done this, got up in front of and talked to everybody at the first boot camp, I would have been shocked. It's just amazing how you've come out of that and ___.
            Stephen: Thank you. Thank you.
            Mr. Brumley: I'm a type-A personality, which means I'll die two days after I retire. So I just keep working. I like to work and I like to push myself, and I like to set goals. I like to move in different directions and like to have a little supplemental income. I was burned out.
            Last December, early December, I was building an infomercial. The second day of filming, Scott Smith looked at me and he said, "It ain't there." He said, "Man, where's the spark? Where are you at?" I said, "I don't know." I just got burned out.
            He said, "I've got an idea. I'm going to call Stephen Oliver and let you go to his Extraordinary Marketing seminar." I said, "No, I'm going to figure out some stuff and then I'll ___." He said, "No, I'm telling him. He's on the phone."
            Stephen: He called me right there.
            Mr. Brumley: Yeah, in the car. We're driving on the road heading to lunch, and he's talking to me. So I booked a flight and I came. I wrote in that first testimonial back to you that it just relit me. It just gave me that passion that I had. We all have that passion we start with. "I'm going to be the greatest and I'm going to be the best in this town. I'm going to be the best at something. I'm going to do the best of something. And I'm going to accomplish something for these people, and I'm going to make some money doing it. I'm going to make a nice living and I'm going to support my family."
            So I had that fire. I was doing well. And I didn't even know I was burned out. Then I came and you just relit that fire. You kept going and going and going and people said, "Oh, he's going to let us go at 1:00, 2:00, 3:00 in the morning."
            I did like Lloyd, I just went home and I just touched stuff for a while and just kind of sorted my own mind. In fact, on Sunday and Monday. Excuse me, Monday and Tuesday, because there was skiing. So after a couple of days, Tuesday, when I went back to my staff, I said, "You all need to be here. As soon as I get off the plane, be at the office. We're going to have a meeting."
            And I got to the meeting and I said, "First, let me just clear my head." One of my managers, he said, "You okay?" I said, "Why do you ask?" He said, "I don't like the look in your eye." I said, "Wait until you hear what I've got to say."
            Within two days, we went to the new curriculum and they said, "That will work." I said, "It doesn't matter if it will work or not, we're going to do it. You just follow my lead and let's go." And in three days, we changed our process. In a week, our whole business. We started making some improvements and changes and everything got fun again. The passion came back. It wasn't that I was tired, I was bored. I was dying inside. Man, I had to have something, and you just kind of relit it. I really appreciate you doing that.
            Stephen: Oh, you're quite welcome.
            Mr. Brumley: I would have come back in the summer, but it's kind of like ___. I had all this stuff and all these ideas, and I wasn't sure if it was going to throw me into overwhelm. So I didn't know if I could even handle another dose of it.
            Stephen: You've been here three times now.
            Mr. Brumley: Well, I did come back. I felt guilty about not coming back in the summer, so I came back about two months later and spent a couple days with you. I went to see Lloyd this summer and I liked the idea of let's go to four or five of these. And, again, that's what I'm doing.
            Stephen: What kind of financial impact has it had in the last 12 months?
            Mr. Brumley: I've increased about $180,000 since the last dress-up.
            Stephen: An average of $15,000 a month. Yeah, $180,000. Guys, let's clarify. Remember, the economy is horrible and everybody's getting laid off, and all the big companies don't know what's going on, and the airplanes crashed into the towers, United Airlines is bankrupt, AOL just lost $99-million.
            But they chose not to play with the downturn, right? They chose not to participate. So therefore, a $300,000 improvement and a $180,000 improvement in the worst economy in the last 12 years. Right? I look at statistics. 1992 was the last time. In fact, the irony is one of our peak record years for Mile High Karate was 1992. At the time, it was comparable to what it is right now. We chose not to play.
            Fantastic. Let's hand off to James Schroeder.
            James, you have nine schools and have been in the industry for how many years?
            James: About 20 years now.
            Stephen: About 20 years. Why would you venture out here twice and what did you get from the last year?
            James: The first time I came, I got about 2,000 e-mails from you, bribing me. I said, "I've got to find out what this guy knows." I had been pretty successful within my organization and I didn't really have anybody to turn to that had multiple locations. So I said, "Okay, let's go see what this guy has to say."
            I learned things that I did not expect to learn. The most simplest, of course, was that I wasn't charging enough money. And we immediately raised our rates. That's one of the reasons we were up about 20% this year.
            Stephen: Yeah? Let's say it again, 20%?
            James: 20% overall.
            Stephen: What kind of revenue did that turn?
            James: It's about a quarter of a million. It's not as much as Lloyd. But I'll take it.
            So I went out and bought a boat and I took the summer off. And then, I came back and we started and I was happy.
            Then we came back and said, "Okay, what else can we do?" We were really intrigued by the after-school program that Mr. Louis was talking about. One of my partners here, Mr. Gray, we worked hard on implementing that - not for one location, but for the entire chain that we had. And bam, bam, bam, we're signing up people all over the place. I'm thinking to myself, "My God, I've been in this business, I've tried this, that, this, that, I've never seen response like this."
            So now comes time to come back this year and I'm thinking, "I've got to go. I don't know what I'm going to find out." I had no clue there were going to be such unbelievable individuals, and so humble. The amount of business that they've done, the history of all of it blows my mind. I just can't wait. I already know what to do. I've got a good idea, but I'm not quite sure. The implementation process at my locations is a little bit more difficult than just one location. But I'm like Master Von Schmelling. I want that watch. I want that success.
            And another thing that was alluded to is as you grow older... When you've begun you don't really appreciate it. But as you grow older, there is that realization that there's a lot left to do with the limited time that we have on the earth. I don't want to waste it. I don't want to squander it. I just got shot forward by Joe and the heater. I expected so much return for my investment and I can't tell you what it will do for me, but I know it will be good.
            I want to thank all of the speakers that came here, and I want to thank you, Master Oliver, for this opportunity. And I'm going to be eating so many lunches with people, and we'll see what happens.
            Stephen: Thank you. You were here at our Breckenridge Summit, which was like the most beautiful facility ever in the world. This is nice. Does everybody like this setting? It's nice, but tell them about Breckenridge.
            James: First of all, you almost killed me when I met ___.
            It's basically pretty simple. We were kind of at this point where we were like, "Something's wrong. We're doing everything and we just get stuck, we get stuck, we get stuck." Sometimes, you know things about the industry that are true, but you don't want to accept it because you start to feel like everything that I'm working for has been a lie.
            So when I came up here, I said, "I just need to know one truth." I said, "First, I have to go up there because when I was competing, you were smiling all the time." It's like, "This guy Stephen is always smiling. He must know something that I don't." Yeah, he knew that I was making $400 and he was making $40,000 running a school.
            So I said, "Okay, let me focus on this part." And he just did something that was kind of like a card on a shirt. I was like, "Aha," and you did the funnel. And I was sitting there, because I'm looking at my school and you always get this illusion that you're going to get 300 students and they're going to stay forever and you're going to live off that 300. It doesn't happen like that. You get that 300, you go to sleep, it's 280. You're like, "What happened?" You didn't realize, you know what? This is a race. This is something that's going to be going on for the next 20 years. I'm going to get so far ahead of it that I'm going to be happy, or I'm going to be so far behind that I'm going to be miserable.
            You don't want to get to the point where you're so old that you don't have the energy even to go forward anymore.
            So once you did the paradigm and you said, "This is where all the students are at," I said, "I always knew that."
            So I just attacked the paradigm. I just attacked the funnel. And once I understood that, I've been cashing out, increased the tuition. The first thing I said, you said raise tuition, I went home, called my wife. It was about $95. I said, "Listen, you're going to jump $10 every 20 students. So every time you enroll 20, get the system built up, we went to $105, $110, $115, $120. Next thing you know, we're like, "How far can we push this?" So we said, "$125." We kind of plateaued at $125. So I said, "Okay, let's keep it there for a little while." And then, again, we got stuck at a certain number.
            So from - when was Breckenridge, July?
            Stephen: June.
            James: Six months ago? So from July to now, we increased about $200,000.
            Stephen: In six months? Wait a minute! $200,000?
            James: I was going to call my friend Joe in. Some of you guys that are here for the first time, just forget today. You're just going to get a headache. You're not going to understand any of this stuff. Just get one thing and run with that, and you'll do it. Stick to this and just stay with that. And when you come back, build on that confidence to be able to go a little bit further.
            So once we came back, me and my friend Joe, it was just a belief system that we had, that we could get these numbers, that we could believe we can accomplish that goal. At that time, we just didn't have the formula to do it. But we knew that that was something that could be done. Once we understood where we needed focus, we put our focus there, and that's how I got the results.
            Stephen: Fantastic. What would be the first recommendation for everybody here to do immediately on Monday, to do $200,000 in three to six months. I've got to say this, $200,000 increase in business. Does that sound good?
            James: Well, just watch people in the matrix. Just get out the matrix. Get out of the mental matrix that you're in right now - that's not you - and see who you want to be. And that's it. And believe it and it will happen.
            But a lot of times, what will also help you is, when I talked to Master Mertz at ___'s seminar, he said, "You are the business." He said, "You are the business. The reason why you are where you're at is because you're showing to people that that's where you're at."
            It was one of those situations where my old instructor said, "James, if you was a girl, would you want her to want you, if you were ___?" I said, "No, I wouldn't." So he said, "How do you expect her to want you?"
            As an instructor, we want our students to be instructors and role models and all these great people, but we look like bums.
            As soon as we came home, I called my wife and said, "Listen, go get the car. We're getting a new car. You're getting new clothes. I'm going to Dave's van, I'm getting new shoes." Everything changed. But I always knew that's what I had to do, but I was trying to fight this. And maybe I could go three more years with a sweat suit and come to the school.
            It just can happen. So as soon as I spoke to Master Mertz and he said do this, as soon as I went home I just did that. And then I applied a few of the principles you did, hit the funnel and that was it.
            Stephen: Fantastic. How do you follow all that?
            Attendee: I can tell you what happened to me. The last two years, I've been totally doing everything different, looking at everything we've done over the last 25 years. It's a process. It's still continuing. But I like what's happened.
            Last January, I was sitting at my computer and I was reading your newsletter. And you said we need to raise the prices and we ought to charge $159 a month. And I sat back in my chair and I thought for about a half an hour. And the whole thing that I was thinking, it was like one of those things that hits you right in the face, that you were thinking, "Why was I so stupid over all of these years, not to realize that I should have been raising my prices?"
            I got to thinking just exactly what Master Clark was saying. I thought the exact same thing. What did I pay for a car in 1972, and what was I paying for karate classes in 1972, and what does that represent in today's dollars? And I said, "Somehow, I have to figure out how to justify raising prices."
            So I spent a lot of time thinking and I came to the June program. My wife was with me. I said, "I'm convinced, but I've not convinced anybody in my organization." I said, "I want to raise them. I want you to go back and just raise the prices. The next five people who walk in, I don't care if you don't sign any of them up, just ask for $119. Just do it."
            She started getting it. But when it was all said and done, we launched our new program. The rotating curriculum was the other thing.
            I liked the debate that we had. It was a very lively debate last time. And it was interesting. And that's why it's not a problem for you not to understand something.
            See, the rotating curriculum I came up with is really different from what you guys are doing, from what Master Clark is doing, but it fits me. It is a true rotating curriculum. It's probably closer to what Master Smith would like, just hearing him talk. It fits better with what I do.
            I had to get those things all squared away. We launched in August. My oldest son - I had two of my sons in the business - he said, "I want to open a school." So he opened this in January. It's doing quite well. He's had a great month and we're real pleased. For the first time, we were signing people up for $8,000 contracts. We'd never done that before. In fact, I signed up one of my junior black... Well, he's now a senior. He turned 16, took the belt test, continuing on now. And I signed him up for one year. And I looked at the check and I thought, "That's almost what I used to charge for a black belt program that took three years. His mom was ecstatic to write the check. He was ecstatic. Everybody's happy. That's what we went to.
            Remember, it's a business. I didn't do like him. I didn't go to business school. I don't do that mom-and-pop thing. I didn't have that education, and it's good to be around people who are going through everything absolutely the hard way. And it's good to hear guys who did that, as well as guys who are coming from a business-educated background, and to compare all that and make intelligent decisions and move your business forward. I find it very profitable.
            Stephen: Financial impact?
            Attendee: The only change, as I said, there at the end of August, we only had a few months, we still were up 15%.
            Stephen: 15%? That's excellent.
            Attendee: I just wanted to say a couple words. The reason I wanted to do this right afterwards is because I really, sincerely wanted everybody to understand my position.
            Last year, the reason I came to the camp, the boot camp, first of all, I wanted to network with some people that I admired. Master Oliver. And this year, even more people came that I admire. Everybody already knows everybody who's here; Master Clark, Master Smith, Master Corley and the others.
            But the first time I came to the camp, I came because I wanted my staff to learn more about sales, telephone answering, all the things that I sell in my program. But why? I can sell and I can teach probably as well as anybody else can. But you know what? Sometimes your staff doesn't listen to you as well and/or when I sit down and listen to the things that I already sell and I can already do, I listen to other things that I can add and things that I forgot and things that I can reinforce.
            So, like Master Oliver said, I try to do as many things as I can, whether it's something that I'm very good at or not, because I can continually increase my skills. And I learn from a white belt or from a new school owner as much as I can learn from other school owners because they have a different perception of what's going on.
            But the main reason I came to the first camp was so my staff could get exposed and learn other things, and maybe fill in some holes that I didn't get.
            This year, I came because I wanted to do the same thing with my staff. However, when I did come I learned more about renewals. I could already renew; but how to renew and make more money.
            I learned the marketing that we talked about, the remnants ads and things of that nature. And this time when I came, I got more of what I wanted and it was different but the same. We had more speakers this time, about the same type of thing with different views, so we can pick different pieces.
            Every successful school is successful because they've done it a certain way, because it fits them. I might not be able to do it any of those ways. But if I take two or three ways from each one that fit me the best, then I can be successful.
            I would suggest that everybody do come back as much as you can. Because even if some of it's the same information, there's no way that even I'm going to retain most of this information that I have now, because I'm not going to be able to implement it all at one time.
            So what you have to do at this time is take one or two pieces, implement it now, come back and get the other two pieces, implement it again. But you have to do what Lloyd did. You've got to do it. So I would recommend everybody come back to the camp.

            Jeff Smith
            If you missed this boot camp, you're in big trouble. The people here spent a small fraction investment, $2,000, for a return of $200,000, some people even $300,000 in just one year.
            So how much value can you put on an investment of $2,000? Tell me where you can turn $2,000 into $200,000 in a year. And because of what you learned, you can use that year after year. So how many years does it take to turn that $2,000 into a million dollars? Anybody else that can find where they can turn $2,000 into a million, please call me. Thank you.

            Dave Shirley
            Villari Martial Arts Centers
            Hi, I'm Dave Shirley. I'm with Villari Martial Arts Centers. I just wanted to let you know that I've been in this business for 20 years and I've had some success. I've done pretty well. It's easy, and I'm sure a lot of you could share this with me, you get to think that you're pretty good at what you do. You've got your systems, they're making some money, you're doing pretty well.
            But the thing I got the most out of this is how much more I can do and how much there is that I don't know. The information that's available from some of these people are just blowing my mind. It gives me a vision, a renewed vision of what I can do with this opportunity, this business that I have in this wonderful industry that is just getting going.
            So I encourage you to take advantage of this great information that's out there. Good luck to you.

            Robert Austin:
            International Black Belt Academy
            Hi, my name's Robert Austin, with International Black Belt Academy. I just wanted to speak about Master Oliver and the boot camp.
            My good friend, Master Tommy Lee, has been working with me a little bit, helping our academies here in Colorado to grow. He had attended the boot camp and had shared with me how I would benefit by coming to Master Oliver's camp.
            The fact that Master Oliver and I both are in the same market, I was a little bit hesitant as to whether he would really be open to share with me.
            What I'd like to share with you is that I've just been amazed at Master Oliver's willingness to sit down with me, openly share everything about his program. Everything that was accessible at the boot camp was available for me. I would just highly recommend this camp to anybody who wants to take it to the next level, and know that Master Oliver will do anything he can to help you to be the greatest success you can be. Thank you.
            Attendee: Last year, coming to the boot camp, we went home just mind-boggled. Master Oliver is such a brainiac and he brought so much information to us.
            I not only increased my revenue quite a bit, as I shared earlier, but one of the greatest benefits I forgot to mention is my staff is so much happier. They were reluctant, at first, to increase the prices and offer all the new programs. But they're so much happier because all of them are making more money, increasing their standard of living.
            And I was glad and appreciative to Master Oliver for not only helping me, but also helping my staff. Thank you,

            Master Oliver.
            Attendee: The amount of talent at the camp was just amazing and opening my eyes to how much I can grow my school and skyrocket. I look at it as a challenge to see how much I can increase my gross in just the six months before the next boot camp I'm already booked in at, and to implement all the new ideas they've sent me.
            I'm usually not a note-taker. I went through two pads of paper in two days. I couldn't stop taking notes. I already have a three-page action plan for what I'm going to implement the first day we get back in the classes. I just can't wait to get back.

            Mark McCumber:
            Hi, my name's Mark McCumber. I used to work with Stephen Oliver about seven years ago, running one of his schools. I got the opportunity to come back out here again and work with some of the old staff.

            I think this weekend was probably one of the best weekends I've had in almost any seminar that I've ever been in. I've gone to a lot of the big, national conventions and things like that. This is probably the best packed weekend of information that you could possibly get. You've got the elite, the top echelon of school owners out here giving you this information in a two-day weekend. I think it's probably the best thing you could ever do. So definitely, come out here when you can.

            Lloyd Irvin
            If you treat your business like a hobby, it's going to pay like a hobby. If you treat your business like a business, it will pay like a business. The martial arts industry is a business. And with the Extraordinary Marketing boot camp, Master Oliver has put together an extraordinary program. I'm just super-excited. Maybe you've seen my testimonials on his website before. I'm tired, it's late, it's almost 3:00 AM in the morning. I'm just excited.
            If you just come to the program, implement the things that are being taught, don't try to take everything but one or two things, definitely to do but to see. Like I say, I'm super-excited. Everything I've been doing over the last 18 months has come from Master Oliver. If it wasn't for Master Oliver, I'm not sure where my business would be. I'm just super-excited.
            You need to get to the boot camp. If you miss the boot camp, you're making a big mistake.
            Attendee: I'd like to thank Master Oliver for putting on this seminar today. With the recommendation of Master Lloyd Irvin, I wouldn't be here. It's been very useful and I hope to implement a lot of what I've learned in the coming months. Thank you.
            Attendee: I'd like to thank Master Oliver and Master Lloyd Irvin for turning me on to the seminars. I first got the Boot-Camp-In-A-Box and Extraordinary Marketing, and they were great. I wanted to come to the seminar, and I won't miss another one. A lot of guys say they can't afford to come. You really can't afford not to come. That's the truth.
            Attendee: I want to thank Master Stephen Oliver for an awesome seminar. I'm excited about getting back to my school on Monday and implementing the programs. I know that with the stuff I learned this weekend, I'll probably go back and make an extra $200,000 or $300,000 from it.
            Attendee: I'd like to thank Stephen Oliver for bringing me to this seminar. I learned a lot. And hopefully, over the next year, we'll be able to come back and have one of those Rolex's.

            Tim Kovar
            Hi. My name is Tim Kovar and I'd like to highly encourage you to come to Stephen Oliver's boot camp. No matter where you are, if your school is relatively small or if you've got a monster school, he does a great job of sort of developing, sort of taking where you are and encouraging you to go to the next level.
            I learned a tremendous amount. I know that a lot of the other big operators learned a tremendous amount this weekend. And, if nothing else, it sparked old ideas that I've heard before and I've been meaning to get around to doing. Now I've got them at the top of my list, ready to go again.
            So I would highly encourage you to come on up to Denver and have a great time, mastermind with some of the best minds in the industry, and be challenged to take yourself and your school to the next level.
            By the way, you might just also end up becoming a millionaire.


              Which court was the Century/NAPMA filed in? I think I want to go read some court records :)

              Thank you for your answers to the questions. Ideally how long should someone run a Martial Arts school before being considered an expert in such operations. I mention this because you pointed out that Graden hadn't ran a school for a long time.

              Secondly do you have an opinion on the book "Small Dojo, Big Profits?"

              We have a thread here called the "Bullshidofication of BJJ" and to summarize it, one of his friends was offering a program in which others would teach with a dark blue belt after as little as a week of BJJ. Given that the average BJJ Blue belt is produced in 18-24 months, this was a particularly questionable program.
              Last edited by Sam Browning; 1/31/2007 3:58pm, .


                looking forward to the abridged version...
                Straight punches make you go blind. More damage is done to a criminals nervous system when they are struck. Strikes that make you stronger. All this and more systema douchebaggery:


                NEW BONUS REEL, feat RobG at it again! lol:


                  http://www[email protected]



                    For the whos and whys of this program, see the first post of this thread.


                    It could be subtitled, "how not to establish a bolt on grappling program".

                    Could you imagine one of these guys up against a legitimate BJJ with two years of solid training?

                    Someone who just came in to roll, could make the entire class and instructor look very foolish.


                      Originally posted by Samuel Browning
                      For the whos and whys of this program, see the first post of this thread.


                      It could be subtitled, "how not to establish a bolt on grappling program".

                      Could you imagine one of these guys up against a legitimate BJJ with two years of solid training?

                      Someone who just came in to roll, could make the entire class and instructor look very foolish.
                      However, I could send Jeff Smith in to kickbox or fight with just about any 25 year old
                      instructor in the country and he would make them look foolish. And, he qualifies for an AARP card. That doesn't make what they are teaching bad (although it certainly may be, I claim no special BJJ expertise.)

                      Clearly FIGHTING Ability is not the only sign of a qualiity instructor. And, many GREAT fighters are really bad teachers - usually worse school operators.

                      Stephen Oliver.


                        If you don't know your shit, you shouldn't be teaching it. The old adage of "Those who do, do, and those can't teach," is a bunch of poppycock. You're insulting a large number of people (fighters and school operators) by calling their instruction substandard - does your program actually change the method and manner of their instruction or does it just jazz them up with a marketing re-fit?
                        "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
                        - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"


                          Originally posted by StephenOliver
                          However, I could send Jeff Smith in to kickbox or fight with just about any 25 year old
                          instructor in the country and he would make them look foolish. And, he qualifies for an AARP card. That doesn't make what they are teaching bad (although it certainly may be, I claim no special BJJ expertise.)

                          Clearly FIGHTING Ability is not the only sign of a qualiity instructor. And, many GREAT fighters are really bad teachers - usually worse school operators.

                          Stephen Oliver.
                          True that fighting ability is not the only sign of a quality instructor, but we judge cus demato (sp) by his students rather than his own skills. A good instructor turns out students who can fight and they are generally pretty visable.

                          Now BJJ is an art which is very tactile, its based on feel. Why does a certain hold work or not work and how do you flow into or obtain position? Its mostly small mechanics done well. Stuff that the average person takes at least two years to learn, before they understand it well enough to teach this material.

                          I could enroll Jeff Smith in this BJJ program as a teacher and unless he has a black belt in Judo he'd be lost. Oh, he could stomp anyone in his school with his kickboxing ability, but he would have to start learning BJJ from scratch. If you advertise BJJ you should be able to actually teach BJJ. Now I know that some Korean schools are famous for TKD instructors advertising backgrounds in Hapkido and Yudo without knowing diddly about either, but its really unfair to the students, which leads us back to ill-advised bolt-on programs.


                            Originally posted by Samuel Browning
                            True that fighting ability is not the only sign of a quality instructor, but we judge cus demato (sp) by his students rather than his own skills. A good instructor turns out students who can fight and they are generally pretty visable.

                            Now BJJ is an art which is very tactile, its based on feel. Why does a certain hold work or not work and how do you flow into or obtain position? Its mostly small mechanics done well. Stuff that the average person takes at least two years to learn, before they understand it well enough to teach this material.

                            I could enroll Jeff Smith in this BJJ program as a teacher and unless he has a black belt in Judo he'd be lost. Oh, he could stomp anyone in his school with his kickboxing ability, but he would have to start learning BJJ from scratch. If you advertise BJJ you should be able to actually teach BJJ. Now I know that some Korean schools are famous for TKD instructors advertising backgrounds in Hapkido and Yudo without knowing diddly about either, but its really unfair to the students, which leads us back to ill-advised bolt-on programs.
                            I agree.

                            Lots of lousy schools try to do whatever seems popular at the time and, of course do it poorly. Many otherwise excellent schools practically ran themselves out of business by trying to become Tae Bo (Cardio Kickboxing) schools then BJJ schools when the trends hit. Stupid.

                            I agree totally - also that the best way to evaluate an instructor is on the ability of their students.


                              Anybody agree that this thread should be merged with the other or is this better format?



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